Maybe ignorance is bliss ?

Great post, you should write a book!  nice to see someone on here that is not frightened to tell it as it is! PMSL, You ever read "Private Dancer"? the author made a tidy sum from it & still does.

goodolboy wrote:

Great post, you should write a book!  nice to see someone on here that is not frightened to tell it as it is! PMSL, You ever read "Private Dancer"? the author made a tidy sum from it & still does.

Thanks for the comment.
All I have achieved here is an addiction to Bourbon.

To be honest, teaching them HOW to do things in a better way is a waste of time. Common sense is also an unknown concept.

After my first year here I gave up trying to show my staff a better way..." Viet Nam different" was the usual response I got.

Finally....I asked my wife what she is going to do with the guitar that has been moving house with us for the last 5 years. Her reply...." I will give it to my deaf nephew" pretty well a waste of time replying to that.

colinoscapee wrote:

To be honest, teaching them HOW to do things in a better way is a waste of time. Common sense is also an unknown concept.

After my first year here I gave up trying to show my staff a better way..." Viet Nam different" was the usual response I got.

Finally....I asked my wife what she is going to do with the guitar that has been moving house with us for the last 5 years. Her reply...." I will give it to my deaf nephew" pretty well a waste of time replying to that.

The therapist at my Alcohol Abuse meetings would probably agree with you.

Indices wrote:

My last crusade...

Thanks for sharing!

Keep coming back... 😎

I haven't had it nearly that bad but it's only been a year for me.   This latest thing about buying the land and letting her brother farm it while we are in the US is going to be interesting.  I am going to instill some best practices.  I'm sure in the last two days of reading about cashew growing I already know more about how to improve yields than the average cashew farmer out in their area.  It's really not difficult.  They just can't see past buying the cheapest seedlings and skimping on fertilizer.  That truly halves their yields.  Also they will freak when I take down some of the biggest trees on the farm eventually.  Yes, it looks like they yield a lot but they don't produce anywhere near what the square meters it is covering is worth with new, properly planted and pruned trees will yield in the same space.  But it's my farm, I'm paying the bills and it's going to be run my way.  He's a good kid and willing to work so I think it can work out.  I think he's 25 and he's willing to listen to his older sister if not me.  He also understands the more the farm makes the more he makes.

I'm probably kidding myself and all of you will get to tell me "I told you so" in a couple of years but it will still be fun.

Indices, I need to talk with you a little bit sometime about coconuts.  I want to do some of those as well.  Maybe only a couple hundred trees or so.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Indices wrote:

My last crusade...

Thanks for sharing!

Keep coming back... 😎

Thank you Sir.

SteinNebraska wrote:

Indices, I need to talk with you a little bit sometime about coconuts.  I want to do some of those as well.  Maybe only a couple hundred trees or so.

I wish you well and hope it works out for you. It has been my experience that even in the best case scenario when the Vietnamese work well it tends to slacken off somewhat as soon as you turn your back. As for Coconuts it is more long term but so far doing well. In the third year the crop has tripled what could have been earned from rice over the same acreage as well as additional income from fish within the system.  It is an easy crop with relatively low workload once established. I went to stay with a friend of mine for a week at his farm where he grows 40,000 Coconut tress using modern methods to get an idea of how it all works. His trees grow in an integrated system with Catfish. Simple to set up and no fertiliser etc needed. If I can help then contact me via email and if I can answer your questions or give you any guidance I will be happy to do so.

Indices wrote:

As for Coconuts it is more long term but so far doing well. In the third year the crop has tripled what could have been earned from rice over the same acreage as well as additional income from fish within the system.  It is an easy crop with relatively low workload once established.

Sounds a lot like cashews.  3-5 years after planting to get into good yields, low maintenance once established.

Indices - I applaud you for the effort, but I doubt I could do the same.  Not that I don't want to, but it is the results that are the reasons I do not.  In my opinion, it comes down to the people you are dealing with and it has nothing to do with their country because there are millions of people here in the west that have the same mentality that you discussed in your OP.  No matter how much you help, they end up broke and back in the same place they started. 

I have interesting VN family in that 1/2 is your typical VN family while the other 1/2 is well off.  As you can surmise, the well off half never visits the other half and vice versa.  The 1/2 that is not well off, they are always talking about how they are going to be rich and their plans (e.g., schemes) to make money, but of course, they never pan out, but they never change.  I told my wife, you think they would realize after so many years of trying the same failed policies that they would figure out they need to change, but no.

The other 1/2 that is well off, they went to school, have good jobs, work hard and are always moving forward.  So I asked the question "why don't these families spend more time together?"  The well off 1/2 basically stated they would visit the other 1/2 more, but why should we because they just see us as money machines, not family.  The other 1/2 that is not well off, they say the better 1/2 are just snobs and selfish so why would we want to visit with them?

I do not think it is a VN issue, it is life.  I have seen the same behaviors in all parts of the world I have lived, South America, Central America, USA, Western Europe and East Asia.  My advice, you need to figure out who you are dealing with and manage the expectations vs. risk and reward.

vndreamer wrote:

Indices - I applaud you for the effort, but I doubt I could do the same.  Not that I don't want to, but it is the results that are the reasons I do not.  In my opinion, it comes down to the people you are dealing with and it has nothing to do with their country because there are millions of people here in the west that have the same mentality that you discussed in your OP.  No matter how much you help, they end up broke and back in the same place they started. 

I have interesting VN family in that 1/2 is your typical VN family while the other 1/2 is well off.  As you can surmise, the well off half never visits the other half and vice versa.  The 1/2 that is not well off, they are always talking about how they are going to be rich and their plans (e.g., schemes) to make money, but of course, they never pan out, but they never change.  I told my wife, you think they would realize after so many years of trying the same failed policies that they would figure out they need to change, but no.

The other 1/2 that is well off, they went to school, have good jobs, work hard and are always moving forward.  So I asked the question "why don't these families spend more time together?"  The well off 1/2 basically stated they would visit the other 1/2 more, but why should we because they just see us as money machines, not family.  The other 1/2 that is not well off, they say the better 1/2 are just snobs and selfish so why would we want to visit with them?

I do not think it is a VN issue, it is life.  I have seen the same behaviors in all parts of the world I have lived, South America, Central America, USA, Western Europe and East Asia.  My advice, you need to figure out who you are dealing with and manage the expectations vs. risk and reward.

I agree with what you say in as much as my career was essentially  based on managing expectations. Peoples dreams of owning and/or renovating very expensive iconic vintage cars can easily become a complete and very costly nightmare. Despite having been hired by clients for a not inconsiderable fee to examine, price, purchase and renovate vehicles as a viable project there have been several occasions when my advice has been ignored with the inevitable and very expensive consequences. When dreams interfere with business logic the result never has a happy outcome.
But when it comes to families it is a whole different ball game as there is far more to it than common sense or logic. Any project has one of two primary objectives. One is driven by profit the other is driven by passion and sometimes passion is worth the cost.  Helping family members is just that, a passion. Most people that you try and help will indeed fall back into the pit you have tried to pull them out from but to stop trying makes life a little pointless because just occasionally someone will take a helping hand and change their lives for both themselves and their families. Get kicked in the mouth then just spit out the teeth, see a dentist and carry on. Same with any race or creed all over the world.
Win some loose some, but always get back in the ring even when it comes to my wife's dumbshit bag of degenerates 

Disclaimer : I'm an american born ethnic Vietnamese.

Today my brother told me that next time I go back to VN I should bring a poster that says "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different result".

His mind was blown when I explained to him the reason I couldn't do that because my vietnamese employees would read it as "You are insane if you do the same thing over and over.  It's better to do nothing (at work)".

I was very pessimistic about Vietnam after working there for 2 1/2 years but recently I've revaluated my opinion again.  I'm still not optimistic about Vietnam but at worse they are only slightly below average.  I've met enough people in VN that there is still some hope.  Unfortunately, and not coincidentally, these people are the same ones that have realistic aspirations to leave the country.   (By realistic aspirations, they are trying to leave to provide opportunity for their kids but understand their life won't necessarily get better).

I'll avoid the "Vietnam different" comment because I can go off for pages on that.

A nice slice of Viet reality. It's pretty refreshing given how shallow most stuff people say about the locals is ("omg so friendly", "omg so awesome"). I personally try to never help them, even if it involves simply holding the door (why bother, since 98 out 100 won't even acknowledge my little act of courtesy, let alone utter a "thank you").

Indices wrote:

vndreamer wrote:

Indices - I applaud you for the effort, but I doubt I could do the same.  Not that I don't want to, but it is the results that are the reasons I do not.  In my opinion, it comes down to the people you are dealing with and it has nothing to do with their country because there are millions of people here in the west that have the same mentality that you discussed in your OP.  No matter how much you help, they end up broke and back in the same place they started. 

I have interesting VN family in that 1/2 is your typical VN family while the other 1/2 is well off.  As you can surmise, the well off half never visits the other half and vice versa.  The 1/2 that is not well off, they are always talking about how they are going to be rich and their plans (e.g., schemes) to make money, but of course, they never pan out, but they never change.  I told my wife, you think they would realize after so many years of trying the same failed policies that they would figure out they need to change, but no.

The other 1/2 that is well off, they went to school, have good jobs, work hard and are always moving forward.  So I asked the question "why don't these families spend more time together?"  The well off 1/2 basically stated they would visit the other 1/2 more, but why should we because they just see us as money machines, not family.  The other 1/2 that is not well off, they say the better 1/2 are just snobs and selfish so why would we want to visit with them?

I do not think it is a VN issue, it is life.  I have seen the same behaviors in all parts of the world I have lived, South America, Central America, USA, Western Europe and East Asia.  My advice, you need to figure out who you are dealing with and manage the expectations vs. risk and reward.

I agree with what you say in as much as my career was essentially  based on managing expectations. Peoples dreams of owning and/or renovating very expensive iconic vintage cars can easily become a complete and very costly nightmare. Despite having been hired by clients for a not inconsiderable fee to examine, price, purchase and renovate vehicles as a viable project there have been several occasions when my advice has been ignored with the inevitable and very expensive consequences. When dreams interfere with business logic the result never has a happy outcome.
But when it comes to families it is a whole different ball game as there is far more to it than common sense or logic. Any project has one of two primary objectives. One is driven by profit the other is driven by passion and sometimes passion is worth the cost.  Helping family members is just that, a passion. Most people that you try and help will indeed fall back into the pit you have tried to pull them out from but to stop trying makes life a little pointless because just occasionally someone will take a helping hand and change their lives for both themselves and their families. Get kicked in the mouth then just spit out the teeth, see a dentist and carry on. Same with any race or creed all over the world.
Win some loose some, but always get back in the ring even when it comes to my wife's dumbshit bag of degenerates 

"God, Grant Me The Serenity..."

What an interesting story, Indices. I applaud you for trying to make a difference and help your family. I'm guessing most foreign retirees to Vietnam make attempts to improve lives here, as we arrive grateful, to have a new good life, with more resources, from cultures of generosity. Sorry about the headaches from your well-meaning runs into those stone walls.

My experience is same and different.
I realized only after moving here, that in my life, I had never known an poor uneducated people before. (Though I certainly had encounters, in the Army, bus stations, ghetto Boston). The poor are probably the same all over the world. Money is constantly on their minds, possible hunger too, superstitions replace logical plans and action, dreams are of good luck coming soon, and temptation of crimes of opportunity hover.

It is impossible for me to relate to how poor people see the world. I'm American, from where freedoms of education, opportunity, and hard work ethics are built into the system, even to many Americans born poor, and a magnet to millions of immigrants.

My wife's family is full of hard working women and soft men. Her nephew started a tropical fish business and has done well. I don't understand the all-afternoon naps though. I have offered to help the family but they won't take a penny. (I am so glad they accepted the offer to rebuild the family house, only on condition the we live there too. It's given me a feeling of usefulness to help them a little. The thing is almost done, any day now, after a year hurdles.)

This thread is mostly about the poor and country people. I would never generalize 'all Vietnamese are like this' like you see occasionally in Facebook expats.  I have also encountered plenty of other Vietnamese: two who have started schools, an architect who built a hotel, a jeweler, many who have degrees and steady jobs in tech and medicine and teaching. There is a middle class here which has a work ethic and desire to move up just like you find in the states.

So I guess my point is that i will never understand the ways of the large group of uneducated, poor, superstitious Vietnamese. I feel kinship with motivated white-collar workers and entrepreneurs. And the third group, the rich, I don't know any and my middle-class-biased presumption is many are corrupt and insensitive to the less advantaged so I neither relate or care about them!

People are the makers of their own luck.

Take my own errors, quitting basically good jobs. Figjting battles for years, instead of moving on and trying to change my habits.

Someone who has been incapable of fixing motorcycles - what were you thinking?!? I have been shocked by the incredible ignorance of even pro riders. Some stay in 3rd or 4th gear. Torturing the engine. Not comprehending the gearbox? A cyclist will soon figure out that top gear is a bad choice when standing still.

They love to mess up the idle speed to the point of engines stalling. Like they won't turn on their lights in darkness, due to a notion that they will save 111 VND a quarter in gas?!

Can you really help someone?

I know a teacher, who keeps sending a grand to her daughter, who is married to an engoineer. The daughter pretends to be studying "online". Narly 6 years, no checks (progress? Attendance? Perhaps it has been all felony skullduggery? Throwing money at a problem...