Environmentally Friendly Insulation

Cellulose as in hay? :-)

What you say sounds just as good for mice and fire, so why pay more?
Bales of straw and old hay should be available in a few months if space is not an issue.

Soaking natural stuff in flame retardant chemicals and rat poison to make them suitable for construction seems worse to me than taking honest-to-god mineral wool. (Both in environmental damage and health hazard.)

Rockwool is "kőzetgyapot" in Hungarian. For about twice the price of the  popular polystyrene panels you can get it in similarly rigid panels or as roll-out sheets packed tightly. The difference is it's fireproof, and insulates sound well. There are downsides, too: it should not get in contact with water or stepped on directly.

Check this out too for environmentally conscious construction materials:
http://www.fabeton.hu/
They make structural insulating panels with their stuff sandwiched around rockwool:
http://design.netteszt.hu/www.fabeton.h … olapok.pdf

markru wrote:

Hi

I do not know if anyone can help me. I am looking for Cellulose or sheeps wool insulation for my roof space. I have seen this in the UK but cannot find any her so far.

Thanks

Yup, I know what you mean. I saw it being used the other day on some house programme. No idea where you could get it here.

I had to use Rockwool to insulate the outside of my chimney (as it's fireproof). I found it easy to work with (need a big knife) and not too expensive. I could not get anything more than 10cm thick. Probably more eco-friendly than Polystyrene.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I had to use Rockwool to insulate the outside of my chimney (as it's fireproof). I found it easy to work with (need a big knife) and not too expensive. I could not get anything more than 10cm thick.

Gloves, and a set of clothes you don't mind throwing away are recommended though: the tiny mineral fiber fragments while chemically inert, can cause all kinds of mechanical damage if they get into the wrong places.

You should be able to stack the 10cm thick rigid panels if you want more insulation.

szocske wrote:

..... can cause all kinds of mechanical damage if they get into the wrong places.

Yes, bit abrasive but it's not bad. I used kind of cement based glue (like tile glue) to stick on the kind of netting they use for outside insulation in Europe. I used the same kind of thin metal edging used on external insulation. I then plastered it all with a render to make it look solid. Took me quite a time to do the job but it came out very well.

szocske wrote:

You should be able to stack the 10cm thick rigid panels if you want more insulation.

Problem I had was getting the correct length "plugs" made of the right kind of plastic with metal fixing nails, i.e. so it won't melt if it gets hot from the chimney. I don't know the name in Hungarian, in English it's Rawlplug (German = duebel). If I'd used 2 x 10cm, I'd never have been able to get hold of the right plug depth and rockwool panels are not that strong you could double up with alternately placed plugs.  I also had limited depth in which to drill so I had to be careful. If I drilled too far in, I'd puncture the chimney lining.  Anyway, looks OK overall and is doing the job now for a couple of years without any problems.

I got everything from the Platform DIY place in Budaors (and strangely enough, the manager spoke some English).

Hi

Thanks for all the suggestions. Cellulose insulation is actually paper based and usually made from re-cycled paper which makes it environmentally friendly. It is treated to make it fireproof and rats and mice do not eat it or like using it for nesting.

I really would like the sheeps wool but maybe that is asking too much.

I would like to use the cellulose insulation as it can be blown into the roof void. I have a 500-700mm gap between my ceilings and the roof floor as I have huge oak tree trunks going through my roof. This makes for a lot of small square sections which are hard to fill unless I take up all the old roof floor boards.

Blown-in insulation is "befújt szigetelés", gives lots of hits in google.
It seems to be available as a service only though, as it requires some special blowing machineamajig.

szocske wrote:

Blown-in insulation is "befújt szigetelés", gives lots of hits in google.
It seems to be available as a service only though, as it requires some special blowing machineamajig.

Thanks, much appreciated.

markru wrote:

I would like to use the cellulose insulation as it can be blown into the roof void. I have a 500-700mm gap between my ceilings and the roof floor as I have huge oak tree trunks going through my roof. This makes for a lot of small square sections which are hard to fill unless I take up all the old roof floor boards.

Yes, I know this problem but I caution you somewhat as the gap is probably for ventilation. But aside from that I have similar issues in my house. There is indeed a special machine for blowing it in but I am not sure that's what you want to do. Looks like a large air cylinder with a hopper on top. It mixes up beads of insulating material with a kind of cement type substance. This then gets blown into the space (usually a floor) and then a screed is put on top with some wire mesh/grid reinforcement in it. It looks like a kind of spongy frog spawn when you see it close. I think it might be possible to hire one of these machines and do it yourself. It's pretty heavy stuff.

You could insulate the roof space instead (assuming it's not actually a room). One can get rock wool and just lay it over the beams.

Interesting, I always imagined these blown-in materials to be like lint from the dryer... (which is what I use in a plastic bag to seal up a ventilation tube for the winters :-) )

fluffy2560 wrote:

You could insulate the roof space instead (assuming it's not actually a room). One can get rock wool and just lay it over the beams.

Sure, but if you want to keep using that attic for storage or anything then you have to cover the rockwool with some rigid board, propped up densely enough to prevent it from bellowing the aforementioned fiber fragments into your lungs.
(OSB is OSB in Hungarian too, just don't try to pronounce it.)

szocske wrote:

Sure, but if you want to keep using that attic for storage or anything then you have to cover the rockwool with some rigid board, propped up densely enough to prevent it from bellowing the aforementioned fiber fragments into your lungs.
(OSB is OSB in Hungarian too, just don't try to pronounce it.)

You can get boards with a rock wool inner core but these are more for walls. There are also some floor based boards with polystyrene insulation but I think that's really dodgy because of the fire risk. Polystyrene is extremely toxic when burnt due to the gases released. Best avoided in a housing situation.  Rock wool is fine to handle with just bare hands. I didn't use a mask as the material is pretty strong and solid without bits falling off. I would avoid handling fibre glass (as in the insulation material), that's quite dangerous for your health.

fluffy2560 wrote:

markru wrote:

I would like to use the cellulose insulation as it can be blown into the roof void. I have a 500-700mm gap between my ceilings and the roof floor as I have huge oak tree trunks going through my roof. This makes for a lot of small square sections which are hard to fill unless I take up all the old roof floor boards.

Yes, I know this problem but I caution you somewhat as the gap is probably for ventilation. But aside from that I have similar issues in my house. There is indeed a special machine for blowing it in but I am not sure that's what you want to do. Looks like a large air cylinder with a hopper on top. It mixes up beads of insulating material with a kind of cement type substance. This then gets blown into the space (usually a floor) and then a screed is put on top with some wire mesh/grid reinforcement in it. It looks like a kind of spongy frog spawn when you see it close. I think it might be possible to hire one of these machines and do it yourself. It's pretty heavy stuff.

You could insulate the roof space instead (assuming it's not actually a room). One can get rock wool and just lay it over the beams.

Hi

The cellulose Insulation is just like the lint in the dryer that szocske thought it was. It does not have any cement or glue added to it. It is free flowing and just settles into the space. It is used a lot in the UK for wall filling on wodden houses.

I could use rockwool but as I already have wooden floorboards in place, that are close fitting, it would entail lifting most of them to install the rockwool. With the blown in stuff you just cut two small holes and blow away, When the space is full it exits the second hole and you stop. You just seal up the holes afterwards.

I do not believe there is any ventilation through the ceiling void. Most of the ventillation is through the main attic which would remain intact as this is above the floorboards.

Hello members

This is a very interesting thread.

Thanks you all for your contribution , keep going

markru wrote:

..... When the space is full it exits the second hole and you stop. You just seal up the holes afterwards.

I do not believe there is any ventilation through the ceiling void. Most of the ventillation is through the main attic which would remain intact as this is above the floorboards.

Yes, now I know what you mean. I've never seen that used in Hungary or Austria.

I find the building techniques in the region to be somewhat different to those in say, the UK (or even the USA). Lot more timber framing used in the UK and USA and more "kit" type housing.

What I do find very odd is that a lot of houses are made of reinforced concrete in Austria (and also Hungary). Austria has that they have a very large timber industry. Concrete is one of the most non-ecofriendly building materials, yet almost no houses are built with wood (although you can buy wooden kit houses "locally" from Brasov in Romania).

On the other hand, some things in the region are very good for materials. I especially like the way they do the doors (no need to cut out wood for hinges and kit type frames in a box of a standard size - dead easy to fit). I also like the polystyrene formers/bricks they use for making insulated walls.

Rural Hungary is dominated by the uninspired "box" houses, the kind kindergarteners draw: triangle on top of a square, two windows facing the street, chimney with curly smoke.

In socialist times this new "design" was considered modern over the traditional long and narrow houses where rooms opened from each other or from the semi-outdoors balcony running along the whole length of the house ("tornácos parasztház", see google images).

It was simple enough so makeshift construction teams from the extended family could build it, even adapt it to the number of different sized beams they could get their hands on! (completely unpredictable.) Concrete could be added periodically, one weekend at a time. And cement was cheap.

The internal space was subdivided into unusably small, unlit "rooms" so they could have enough rooms for 3 generations, but of course the kids always moved out when they got married if they could.

szocske wrote:

Rural Hungary is dominated by the uninspired "box" houses, the kind kindergarteners draw: triangle on top of a square, two windows facing the street, chimney with curly smoke.

In socialist times this new "design" was considered modern over the traditional long and narrow houses where rooms opened from each other or from the semi-outdoors balcony running along the whole length of the house ("tornácos parasztház", see google images).

It was simple enough so makeshift construction teams from the extended family could build it, even adapt it to the number of different sized beams they could get their hands on! (completely unpredictable.) Concrete could be added periodically, one weekend at a time. And cement was cheap.

The internal space was subdivided into unusably small, unlit "rooms" so they could have enough rooms for 3 generations, but of course the kids always moved out when they got married if they could.

Hi

I am fortunate to own one of the oldest houses in the village and it is built in the old style, big at the front like a normal house but then it just goes back and back with extra rooms, a stable and a barn. It is made like a castle on the ground floor with stone walls up to a metre thick and then the upper floor is the old style soft mud brick walls. I have started to convert the stable and barn and will be sticking to the original stone walls, original roof but adding drop windows down to floor height. I will be putting in a new floor in the barn which will be wood with underfloor and wall heating powered from my solar system. It will be one big room and then I will fit out a kitchen in one corner. The bedrooms are already in place above the stable. I will also have one very large wood burning open fire in the centre. It will be as environmentally friendly as possible.