Dark side of Hungary

szocske wrote:

Well, one way to keep people from being empowered to inflict change "bottom-up" is taxing them to death. I get to spend about one third of my earnings, two thirds going towards the "top-down" solutions by force of law.

On a side note, isn't the standard rate of income tax in Hungary about 20% or so?

EuropaExpat wrote:

szocske wrote:

Well, one way to keep people from being empowered to inflict change "bottom-up" is taxing them to death. I get to spend about one third of my earnings, two thirds going towards the "top-down" solutions by force of law.

On a side note, isn't the standard rate of income tax in Hungary about 20% or so?

It's not the tax rate on the individual which is high, it's the high cost of employment. The employer has to pay a large contribution and the employee has to pay his/her own taxes plus all the other things like healthcare, unemployment etc etc. All in all this pushes it way up there to 40%-50%+ which is similar if not higher than all the other tax rates in Europe.

EuropaExpat wrote:

On a side note, isn't the standard rate of income tax in Hungary about 20% or so?

The income tax sure is. Plus healthcare tax, plus pension tax, plus "employer side" taxes, then all this also applied on expenses that are deemed "benefits" like a cell phone or car. Or the pizza you get to a team working late into the night. Or the cab you hail to take them home...

I'm running the numbers on the latest 2013 tax calculator, please note we are getting close to the elections:

To "take home" 500kHUF a month (sounds extreme to Hungarians, but it's really just 20kEUR a year), of which you spend 1/3 on sales tax, your pre-tax salary has to be around 800kHUF, costing your employer over 1 million HUF a month.

Better than it used to be a few years ago, when I did have the 1million HUF "dream" salary for a while in Hungary, which at the time netted me below 500k and cost my employer nearly 1.5million. (some of that went towards my private pension fund.) So yeah, I stand corrected, we are now only doing a 50-50 split on my earnings between funding the "top down solution" and budgeting among the following:
- living expenses
- healthcare unless I'm free to wait for half a day for trivial things (not compatible with high-paying job)
- education (depending on where you live, public school might be unsafe or teach religion)
- savings for retirement (private pension funds have just been confiscated)

But the ratio is subject to change on a short notice, so don't plan for long term... Sorry if it sounds bitter, I am planning for long term, and the next step is moving somewhere else with the kids so they can grow up belonging there and have a choice when they grow up...

szocske wrote:

taxing them to death

An EU and European condition that is even worse in Hungary, as you correctly expanded upon in later posts.

You see from my "path" below, I am from the US and I lived in Switzerland, and I had small businesses in both of these countries. These countries are not only small business friendly but small entrepreneur friendly. Not so much in Hungary. And this is not smart, not one bit.

I saw the city's potential and an associated business opportunity, namely high end real estate. But Hungary is an European laggard and has a very backward mentality that include racism, historical myth making, etc. Do not be seduced by Hungary. You will be later disappointed when you realize the truth.

Nonetheless I stay because I have done good work.

No one will twist your  arm to give tips to doctors but just hope you don't need to see them again.
My FIL didn't tip his dentist and had the wrong tooth pulled out at a later visit!
I was going to the dental school in Budapest, had a very nice smart resident student doing my teeth. Was super slow going but she did everything proper by the book with no short cuts. Took about one year to finish the work. I could not even think how much to tip her for all she did for me, would of been more then the work cost.
I gave her about $200. worth of brand new silver native American jewlery. Not sure she liked it, hope so.
The good thing about  being a "foreigner" in Hungary is you can often just play dumb and not tip.
We have tipped a few times though even when using a private doctor or dentist, it all depends on how much they charge and what they do. If we do not tip the doctor we often tip his assistant.We now have HU national coverage but we still tip. My husband and I are getting older and he is not sure he can get though a "mistake" caused by not tipping, sort of double insurance to tip.
The bad thing is sometimes we do over tip, go the fill a script and find we tipped more then the script cost.
We noticed that sometimes we pay more for the same drugs at different pharmacies. Sometimes the doc writes ut a script for 50 pills in two packages and other times just writes out one script for 100 pills,often we think someone is getting a kick back on refills in different quantities.very confusing to figure it all out.
Just try not to get ill.
Corruption is Hungary is everywhere.
What we have come to figure out is that neighborhoods are run by gangs who extort from tetants or use scare tactics to gain info about other tenants in the house. As a foreigner you may not even notice, they probably will not bother with complications of strong arming outsiders.
My husband is Hungarian used to know a ton of people in Hungary. Some he knew now seem to be Lt. with some shady types. We stay away from many old connections because we don't need the hassles.
Some of these connections even cross the ocean.
Easy money with the mob.
We have a guy in our house we are 99.9% sure is a middle level Lt. took us on the grand tour when we moved in, showed us where to shop, where to get things fixed and where to get auto repairs... we always got ripped of using his connections.Now we just say hi and don't tell him any of our business.

An old thread, but on topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzDFEx-hWMk&t=33s

Hungary was like this when I came in the late 20th century. The above video was from 2017.

Has Hungary simply not progressed, or has it gone backwards?

Either way -- very disturbing.

klsallee wrote:

An old thread, but on topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzDFEx-hWMk&t=33s

Hungary was like this when I came in the late 20th century. The above video was from 2017.

Has Hungary simply not progressed, or has it gone backwards?

Either way -- very disturbing.

Wow that hostel in the video was a real flee bag dump!
I met up this past summer with a American lady who came to HU with a group of teachers.
They the co. she was hired with put them up in a hostel for a couple of days for meetings before everyone broke up and went off to various villages, cites and towns all over Hungary to teach English.
The hostel was in the 8th district, the name skips my minds right now.
It was allot cleaner then this in the video but dang it had the worst smell , like a ton of bug spray was on everything.
Everyone was complaining of headaches from the smells.
Her room was clean but a shared room with their own shower and WC and a little cooking area, nothing fancy but OK. She said a shared room in that hostel was $90 a person per night!
Way, way overpriced, must of been a scam with the co, and the teachers as they paid a fee to get their teaching jobs and to have the co. take care of work visa's etc.
One reason I hardly travel these days, way too costly for a hotel room and no way will I stay in a hostel,
The women said even though she had a shared room with a door off the hallway she was up half the night because of loud party goers in other areas of the hostel.
Nah, better off just watching a travel video in the comfort of my own place.

This is an older tread but still interesting as a topic.
Just remembered the name of the hostel, The Good Mo House, funny how it sounds allot like Gitmo!

klsallee wrote:

An old thread, but on topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzDFEx-hWMk&t=33s

Hungary was like this when I came in the late 20th century. The above video was from 2017.

Has Hungary simply not progressed, or has it gone backwards?

Either way -- very disturbing.

Looks like a right dump.  But that's another one of those videos that gives the wrong impression.

Hungarians don't live like that - well not many do these days.  There are some  places I've driven by which are really awful but maybe that's all they can afford.

People from the 1st world can afford to stay somewhere better and post a video about that. But that wouldn't be sensationalist or a story.

Was chatting to someone in a group on Facebook and she said that all Hungarians hate foreigners for those that live in Hungary? If that is the case why are there so many that live in the country?

SimCityAT wrote:

Was chatting to someone in a group on Facebook and she said that all Hungarians hate foreigners for those that live in Hungary? If that is the case why are there so many that live in the country?

I don't believe that to be true at all.  Where was this person from? Is this a foreign or domestic perspective?

What she may have meant is that a large section of the population hate certain ethnic groups.   

The reason they "hate" them is because they've been taught to hate them and due to the language and media controls they are isolated from any other opinions.   

They won't hate Americans or Canadians for example but they will hate say, the Sudanese or Malawians.  I suppose it's because they are more familiar with the Americans etc than the Sudanese or Malawians.  I think it depends on the power of the country relative to Hungary.  They won't hate foreigners in the same way if they are from a very powerful country.   The traditional domestic hate targets are usually the Roma or Jewish people. 

It's easy to see - ask an Austrian. Their attitudes are more or less the same as the Hungarians.

I am a Workaway host but I don't really like the idea of Workaway being used for help in places like hostels as it can be seen as taking away jobs that could be done by local people. I have sometimes stayed in Hostels on holiday or when travelling  and some are very good. For me the good ones are better than staying in a hotel, as it is often possible to make new friends with other guests. Also the staff are usually more helpful with advice and local knowledge. I can also recommend Couchsurfing but I tend to do more hosting than surfing so my experience is limited.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Hungarians don't live like that - well not many do these days.

This is not about how Hungarians live.

Please do note the topic. "Dark Side of Hungary". In this case, it is about exploiting work away people.

I had a guest visit from the USA last year. He had a similar experience at a place he rented. So, yes, it happens. And some people here take advantage of foreigners who don't know that many of the issue in the video I posted are actually illegal and should be reported. But... It is Hungary, so they get away with it until someone reports them. But foreigners don't know they should report the host. Or how to report them. So it is a circle of abuse. Which in the end, ends up giving Hungary a bad name -- or the Dark Side of Hungary.

fluffy2560 wrote:

They won't hate Americans or Canadians for example

When the VW emissions scandal broke, you would be surprised at the number of people I know who said it was an American conspiracy and "fake news" and openly expressed their dislike of Americans. After all it affected German car makers who have a huge stake in Hungary in many cities outside Budapest (i.e. yes, they are biased by that -- fear of loosing employment).

You live in the Budapest area

I live in the countryside.

Possible difference between, say, New York and Kansas (my example, since I am an American). So, do caution one not to assume one's local network, experiences, and peer group represents all that there is.

SimCityAT wrote:

Was chatting to someone in a group on Facebook and she said that all Hungarians hate foreigners for those that live in Hungary? If that is the case why are there so many that live in the country?

Well, not "all" Hungarians hate foreigners.

But the percentage does vary where in Hungary you are.

And one needs to understand that Hungarians do not always really tell you what they are thinking. A socially polite culture. They may hate you, gossip about you behind your back, but still talk to you nicely. This fools many expats.

Need I again give my Kalles example?

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 76#2717261

And, of course, many parts of Hungary has some nice weather and other perks. Expats can put up a lot for nice weather and other perks.

klsallee wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Was chatting to someone in a group on Facebook and she said that all Hungarians hate foreigners for those that live in Hungary? If that is the case why are there so many that live in the country?

Well, not "all" Hungarians hate foreigners.

But the percentage does vary where in Hungary you are.

And one needs to understand that Hungarians do not always really tell you what they are thinking. A socially polite culture. They may hate you, gossip about you behind your back, but still talk to you nicely. This fools many expats.

Need I again give my Kalles example?

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 76#2717261

And, of course, many parts of Hungary has some nice weather and other perks. Expats can put up a lot for nice weather and other perks.

I spoke with my HU born husband this morning about how Hungarians feel about "immigrants".
He said those in HU who may be educated or have family members living and working outside of Hungary are more tolerant of "immigrants".
Immigrants meaning not just the new "refugees" from the middle east  and Africa but because of them coming in and scaring people with their demands etc. , we are all lumped into the "immigrant" status no matter what country you come from and what color your skin may be.
Thanks allot OV!! Those billboards that were posted all over the country did their work all right.
He said if you do not speak Hungarian then most people have no need of you and to their minds you do not matter.
Those who make money off of tourists like us but if people can't make a buck off of you then you do not belong or matter.
OV made statements like you must be OK'ed by us before we will except you as a immigrant in our country and other statements that for low educated people basically means all  non Hungarians in the country.
I was told that a local tv station interviewed some countryside Gypsies and asked how they feel about immigrants.
They said they did like them or want them. The reporter  asked if they ever saw a immigrant and they said no. Just to make a point that those billboards did their job.
We notice at our local stores that the moment my husband speaks English to me while we are waiting in line the clerks attitudes often change on us.
It is like falling off the turnip truck sometimes....

In the US if we citizens double charged immigrants at shops, at every turn we would be pulling a 3 year stretch in Federal Prison for discrimination practices.
It's common in 3rd world countries for people to rip off immigrants, just sad that Hungary someitmes lowers the bar and acts 3 world.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

klsallee wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Was chatting to someone in a group on Facebook and she said that all Hungarians hate foreigners for those that live in Hungary? If that is the case why are there so many that live in the country?

Well, not "all" Hungarians hate foreigners.

But the percentage does vary where in Hungary you are.

And one needs to understand that Hungarians do not always really tell you what they are thinking. A socially polite culture. They may hate you, gossip about you behind your back, but still talk to you nicely. This fools many expats.

Need I again give my Kalles example?

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 76#2717261

And, of course, many parts of Hungary has some nice weather and other perks. Expats can put up a lot for nice weather and other perks.

I spoke with my HU born husband this morning about how Hungarians feel about "immigrants".
He said those in HU who may be educated or have family members living and working outside of Hungary are more tolerant of "immigrants".
Immigrants meaning not just the new "refugees" from the middle east  and Africa but because of them coming in and scaring people with their demands etc. , we are all lumped into the "immigrant" status no matter what country you come from and what color your skin may be.
Thanks allot OV!! Those billboards that were posted all over the country did their work all right.
He said if you do not speak Hungarian then most people have no need of you and to their minds you do not matter.
Those who make money off of tourists like us but if people can't make a buck off of you then you do not belong or matter.
OV made statements like you must be OK'ed by us before we will except you as a immigrant in our country and other statements that for low educated people basically means all  non Hungarians in the country.
I was told that a local tv station interviewed some countryside Gypsies and asked how they feel about immigrants.
They said they did like them or want them. The reporter  asked if they ever saw a immigrant and they said no. Just to make a point that those billboards did their job.
We notice at our local stores that the moment my husband speaks English to me while we are waiting in line the clerks attitudes often change on us.
It is like falling off the turnip truck sometimes....

In the US if we citizens double charged immigrants at shops, at every turn we would be pulling a 3 year stretch in Federal Prison for discrimination practices.
It's common in 3rd world countries for people to rip off immigrants, just sad that Hungary sometimes lowers the bar and acts 3 world.

Seems I've quoted myself, now let's talk about being self centered!!..
No, seriously it's really disappointing at times how people treat us from other countries inside of Hungary.
I do not usually get the full brunt of it because my husband is always with me in public, most times.
He does the speaking but in some situations we still get way sided by officials.
Like recently with my senior discount travel pass.
Their own web site never mentions one has to be a actual citizen to be eligible , I should qualify in their own words on their site because I am a spouse and legal resident of Hungary.
It was all up to a paper pusher inside the SS office in Budapest and it seems they must of gotten up on the wrong side of the bed because I was declined because they said I wasn't a citizen of Hungary.
If we wanted to we could make a stink about it but we'll let it slide until I turn 65 then we will make an issue of it if they don't follow their own rules and regulations.( If I don't leave for good before then)
Just amazes me at times that Hungary wants to be taken as a 1st world country when their people are sometimes so darn backwards.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....
Seems I've quoted myself, now let's talk about being self centered!!..

.... if they don't follow their own rules and regulations.( If I don't leave for good before then)
Just amazes me at times that Hungary wants to be taken as a 1st world country when their people are sometimes so darn backwards.

You're not alone.  Some people in these forums like blowing their own trumpets.  Maybe it should be termed self-promotion. Works for The Donald!

Tell me about the ad-hoc rule making.  They were supposed to send us a paper about our land in September.   Orders are orders, the regulations must be followed except when they're not.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Hungarians don't live like that - well not many do these days.

This is not about how Hungarians live.

Please do note the topic. "Dark Side of Hungary". In this case, it is about exploiting work away people.
....

What I meant was even Hungarians don't live like that. 

Never heard of work away.   Sounds to be more commercially oriented than the usual ones I come across.  Better to take less of a chance at being exploited and get involved elsewhere.  The ones I know are: VSO,  Peace Corps and UNV. 

Less Dark Side and better regulated.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Hungarians don't live like that - well not many do these days.

This is not about how Hungarians live.

Please do note the topic. "Dark Side of Hungary". In this case, it is about exploiting work away people.
....

What I meant was even Hungarians don't like like that. 

Never heard of work away.   Sounds to be more commercially oriented than the usual ones I come across.  Better to take less of a chance at being exploited and get involved elsewhere.  The ones I know are: VSO,  Peace Corps and UNV. 

Less Dark Side and better regulated.

WorkAway = https://www.workaway.info/

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

This is not about how Hungarians live.

Please do note the topic. "Dark Side of Hungary". In this case, it is about exploiting work away people.
....

What I meant was even Hungarians don't like like that. 

Never heard of work away.   Sounds to be more commercially oriented than the usual ones I come across.  Better to take less of a chance at being exploited and get involved elsewhere.  The ones I know are: VSO,  Peace Corps and UNV. 

Less Dark Side and better regulated.

WorkAway = https://www.workaway.info/

Yes, I know.  When I read this term, I found myself in 1986.  Fearing a meltdown and possibly nuclear war, I looked it up by rushing to the library and searching old news papers and journals for the term. I then consulted a phone book. In desperation I phoned a friend who also had never heard of it.  In a panic, I put a small ad in the local paper inviting those who might know to get in contact and when that didn't work I phoned 999 (US: 911) and asked if they knew this term. In the ensuing conversation I also asked how my dog could be prevented from destroying the house and who was on the grassy knoll and they didn't know.  No use at all.   Pfff..... Eventually someone said, use Google and suddenly like Bobby I was in the shower with Pam (!!!) and it was all a dream. I was back in 2019.   Other search engines and Pams are available.

Anyway, before my own posting as I'd never heard the term.  Must be a NA thing but I didn't like it immediately as I read about it as it looks commercial.

If someone is going to do some free work for someone, there are other ways to do it and there are better hostels like YHA (Youth Hostel Association International).

BTW, Mrs Fluffy said the Hungarian homeless are moving to Vienna and living in hostels there.  She said there was a news report which said they pay 1-2 EUR per day, get food and clean sheets every day!  Apparently it's become a very popular as an alternative to those on the frozen streets of Budapest.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Peace Corps

There is no Peace Corps today in Hungary.

Let's live, like it was 2019! 

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

WorkAway = https://www.workaway.info/

Yes, I know.  When I read this term, I found myself in 1986.  Fearing a meltdown and possibly nuclear war, I looked it up by rushing to the library and searching old news papers and journals for the term. I then consulted a phone book. In desperation I phoned a friend who also had never heard of it.  In a panic, I put a small ad in the local paper inviting those who might know to get in contact and when that didn't work I phoned 999 (US: 911) and asked if they knew this term. In the ensuing conversation I also asked how my dog could be prevented from destroying the house and who was on the grassy knoll and they didn't know.  No use at all.   Pfff..... Eventually someone said, use Google and suddenly like Bobby I was in the shower with Pam (!!!) and it was all a dream.

Dream? Are you sure you did not have a stoke?

fluffy2560 wrote:

If someone is going to do some free work for someone, there are other ways to do it and there are better hostels like YHA (Youth Hostel Association International).

Well... That is just an opinion. And is quite "formal". Some people like going it a little more "informal", and by going informal they may see the dark side. And then we know the dark side exists, since they report it. So we are not ignorant, and we all learn from their experiences. Which is a greater good.

in other words, who said this has to be all about "better ways of doing it" (I think that may be a different topic). What fun is there in that? I could do a work away on a freighter and get to the tropics and stay in some dives, or I could book a flight to the tropics and go to a 5 Star Resort. I am not sure which is "better", but the former may be more enlightening and entertaining, may get more Youtube hits, may go viral, generate lots of monetization for the channel owner, and thus may be better in the end..... Because we get too learn about the dark side (vicariously, so we here can endlessly debate it while being warm and comfy).

Hey.... Just saying life varies. Life is not linear. Different strokes for different folks.

klsallee wrote:

.....
Dream? Are you sure you did not have a stoke?

Could have been. Or a TIA.  I've got a cold at the moment. It's going around.  The Fluffy family were all stricken but I was away in the UK and got stricken.  Everyone has a cold there too and expect all those travellers at the airport took it away with them to lots of other countries.  12 Monkeys and all that.

klsallee wrote:

.....
...... And then we know the dark side exists, since they report it. So we are not ignorant, and we all learn from their experiences. Which is a greater good.

in other words, who said this has to be all about "better ways of doing it" (I think that may be a different topic). What fun is there in that? I could do a work away on a freighter and get to the tropics and stay in some dives, or I could book a flight to the tropics and go to a 5 Star Resort. I am not sure which is "better", but the former may be more enlightening and entertaining, may get more Youtube hits, may go viral, generate lots of monetization for the channel owner, and thus may be better in the end..... Because we get too learn about the dark side (vicariously, so we here can endlessly debate it while being warm and comfy).

Hey.... Just saying life varies. Life is not linear. Different strokes for different folks.

They didn't have bars in some Youth Hostels until about 2010.   

But what's the point in slumming it?   I've seen poverty in plenty of places in Africa and places like Bangladesh and elsewhere in Asia and I've decided I won't do poverty myself.   That sounds really harsh in many ways and very un-PC but suffering for the experience - why?!

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Peace Corps

There is no Peace Corps today in Hungary.

Let's live, like it was 2019! 

It is 2019. Well, here anyway.  Might be different in the countryside.

Peace Corps wasn't here, it was Senegal and The Gambia.

Jerry Hartvikson wrote:

It is very hard to imagine that Hungary has not been put on the Humane rights watch concerning the treatment and protection of young offenders who are incarcerated.

Yeah, lots of heartfelt, sad but true stories coming from your southern neighbour over the pond, if you want to earn people's admiration and respect by mouthing off about the incompetence of foster home / prison / justice system employees, you didn't have to come all the way to Hungary. I'm sure that 'muricans too would have appreciated "constructive" criticism coming from a foreigner.    Sorry, but your tone suggests that you're convinced that this only happens in Hungary.

borschelrh wrote:

The Gypsy issue is complicated and is probably equivalent the the US problem with Blacks.

Lots of similarities, but allow me to point out one big difference. In US african americans are practically opressed by authorities and law enforcement. They're more likely to be pulled over, po-pos are eager to reach for the gun (and use it) if the suspect is black, etc. In .hu, authorities are apparently afraid of being called racist and often give gypsies a pass. Also, gypsies are hard to convict when 12 of their cousins give false testimonies. So if you get into a fight with gypsies, no matter the outcome, don't go to the authorities, because, even if you were beaten half-dead, you're the one that will pay for it. So practically gypsies have more rights in this country and this doesn't improve their image...

atomheart wrote:

Jerry Hartvikson wrote:

It is very hard to imagine that Hungary has not been put on the Humane rights watch concerning the treatment and protection of young offenders who are incarcerated.

Yeah, lots of heartfelt, sad but true stories coming from your southern neighbour over the pond, if you want to earn people's admiration and respect by mouthing off about the incompetence of foster home / prison / justice system employees, you didn't have to come all the way to Hungary. I'm sure that 'muricans too would have appreciated "constructive" criticism coming from a foreigner.    Sorry, but your tone suggests that you're convinced that this only happens in Hungary.

There seems to be a European/US difference between prison purposes - rehabilitation of offenders vs punishment. 

Rehabilitation is more desirable in order to create a model citizen whereas punishment works against reintegration and renews a cycle of offending.   

Biggest obvious differences that come to my mind would be archetypal chain gangs,  death row and trying children in adult courts and requiring children to testify and be cross questioned in front of their alleged abusers (e.g. potentially further state sanctioned abuse and then PTSD).