Dark side of Hungary

Another characteristic item which may be classified as corruption:
Hálapénz or Paraszolvencia (gratitude money)  - given to medicals after some substantial treatment, e.g. a surgery in state health care. This is perhaps even a hungarian speciality ?
I believe, the Hálapénz system represents one of the most vicious cycles in many ways, and it may exemplify how complex these problems may be, and why it is so hard to change the way how a society works.
It evolved during socialist times (or before?) when giving doctors a gratitude money (or some present) became perceived acceptable. At this time doctor's salaries were already way below their social status, and most people had an amount of financial stability in their lifes which is in the realm of dreams nowadays.
Things changed since, e.g. medical people's salaries in the state system are staggeringly low, often barely enough to survive (I know a couple of two young doctors in Pécs, both taking home some 4-500 eurs, the've just gotten kids. Afaik, their salaries in Bp. would be the same. Pro'ly already left the country, must ask.). Nurses' salaries are, of course miserable as well, they often also expect some gratitude of the patient's family, to ensure he/she is taken care of well in the hospital. As you can understand, giving some gift to some has always been perceived as culturally acceptable, the question is where to draw the line.
Also, it is hard to tell, how the situation exactly is. Afaik,  patient(family) is often not told explicitly that they should pay. But communication is often subtle 'between the lines' (as usual in this corner of europe). And well, many sick people do not want to take risks. I, for myself, have never experienced Hálapénz expectation personally - being healthy and having lived abroad most of the time. Once the envelope, I was told to hand over to an old professor emeritus was given back with some comment 'you dont imagine?' - so, not all is bad, especially if you are lucky - but you just don't know what you get.
Knowing salaries, those members in my family who have no real financial problems do tend to give doctors some extra money, when using the sate healthcare system.
That the system is vicious both on the community and the personal level (indispensable medical workers who are less exposed to the patient get nothing) is widely accepted, and some countermeasures have been taken. As you can guess, giving a substantial raise to state workers is hard, and the health care system wastes loads of money in its present state. Change would require many more skilled or ethical decision makers/politicians in the right places than what we have today, an establishment taking community interest more seriously, watching less their own interests...  which on the long run depends on spirit of the voters who, however, seem to have often given up hope. So, latest attempt by our government is apparently to - legalise it to a certain extent.
Well I better stop at this point. Otherwise I start telling the story when a family member 'discovered' during travelling how common drugs (generics) are extremely cheap in India, offering a possibility for any healthcare system to spare billions - and was told by a friend working at the political level of the health care system to not pursue this idea for his own sake. ups, sory...

Interesting. I have a question for you. It's likely I will be moving to Budapest in about 7/8 months (living in the Netherlands right now). How would you go about avoiding the “gratitude money” situation when getting some kind of health care/treatment? Does it only really happen in state-run medical places with maybe lower paid staff and where patents probably won't have private health insurance? Or does it happen everywhere? I don't have much knowledge on the health system in Hungary but I only seem to have heard bad things, so I'm wondering if I move there, and have private health insurance which covers the costs of virtually everything, does that give me the ability to go to some “better” medical places where things like this can be avoided?

Many thanks.

Private care providers give you an honest deal, plus comfortable surroundings and less time wasted standing in lines. It's expensive though (at least for most locals.)

Regarding health care - one thing: dentistry is - apart from most basic treatments - quite outside of the state HC funding, so it is basically privatised. Prices are much lower than in western europe, giving rise to a significant 'dentistry tourism'.

I think EuropaExpat's quiestions pose the quetions:

*do private HC providers major things, like a surgery after an serious accident?
*Can you have an insurance in hungary which allows you to go there?
* Or can you buy 'better' health care for more money in a state institution, officially? And, here we are basically back to the 'gratitude' becoming somewhat legalised just now...
* So, can you claim 'gratitude money' on insurance.

I think it is official that you can 'buy' comfort related things such as a bed in a single room and such, depending on the hospital.

While the above questions may show how awkward the situation is, I must say, I do not know the answer.
On the long run, the above things may well become part of the system our current government policy seems to create/strengthen a society with a clear division between classes - IMHO, of course.

Regarding quality, any statement abot good or bad is relative. So far, I had better experience with my (few and minor) medical questions in Bp. than in Germany, as the German system forces doctors to minimise time spent with speaking w their patients.

Also, our central ambulance center in district XIII seems to work pretty well, but this concerns more the bueaurocracy than medical treatment. Note, this is rather well managed district with nearly no debths. sorry this is a very punctual statement, but perhpas someone has better 'proper' statistics.

I'm having these experiences right now, and I must agree, it's tough.  I've been to immigration 4 times now just trying to report my new address, and after 6000 HUF and a lot of busing around, I have yet to legally report it.  They've managed to make a simple "I've moved!" postcard into the most aggravating wild goose chase imaginable.

Health care - I have 'insurance' through my school, so my doctor visits are 'free' - but quite useless.  I basically diagnose myself before hand, and they hand me a prescription.  They do not have my medical history, they run no basic tests, don't take my vitals, nothing.  They are very impersonal, and if I ever get ill again, I'm pretty sure I'm going to visit my boyfriend's doctor, have him translate for me, and pay whatever the costs out-of-pocket just to get a decent exam.  I need new glasses, but I'm going to let myself slowly go blind for another year until I visit the States again- no way I'm trusting a Hungarian with my eyesight... or dentals, or general health for that matter.  It's just unbelievable to me the way things run here.

I don't mean to be a downer, but if it weren't for the cheap cost-of-living and education, the European 'adventure', and being in love with a native, I would have given up after my first year.  I have never loved America more than I do now!

octobop wrote:

I'm having these experiences right now, and I must agree, it's tough.  I've been to immigration 4 times now just trying to report my new address, and after 6000 HUF and a lot of busing around, I have yet to legally report it.  They've managed to make a simple "I've moved!" postcard into the most aggravating wild goose chase imaginable.

Cant agree more. Everytime you go, there are queues with 2 hr waiting time then they want this, that and the whole process is slow and bureaucratic. what did you pay 6000 Ft for?

gosubmit wrote:

octobop wrote:

I'm having these experiences right now, and I must agree, it's tough.  I've been to immigration 4 times now just trying to report my new address, and after 6000 HUF and a lot of busing around, I have yet to legally report it.  They've managed to make a simple "I've moved!" postcard into the most aggravating wild goose chase imaginable.

Cant agree more. Everytime you go, there are queues with 2 hr waiting time then they want this, that and the whole process is slow and bureaucratic. what did you pay 6000 Ft for?

6250 HUF was for the new property title deed sheet to prove the person who signed my lease is indeed the owner.  (turns out the sheet listed the owner of the other half of the property as well, which is a house divided in half.  They said they needed that person's permission for me to live there as well!)

octobop wrote:

what did you pay 6000 Ft for?

6250 HUF was for the new property title deed sheet to prove the person who signed my lease is indeed the owner.  (turns out the sheet listed the owner of the other half of the property as well, which is a house divided in half.  They said they needed that person's permission for me to live there as well!)

oh! yes, now i remember paying about 6000 Ft to get the title registry extract from lawyer. I have been been living in same apartment over a year, yet when i went there, the OIN asked for new rental agreement, new registry extract and new signatures of landlord. I was made to run around too.

octobop wrote:

...and pay whatever the costs out-of-pocket just to get a decent exam.  I need new glasses, but I'm going to let myself slowly go blind for another year until I visit the States again- no way I'm trusting a Hungarian with....

Yup, pay privately and they will lavish all the attention you want. I get my teeth fixed privately and I get my eyes tested for free in the UK and I buy my glasses there - 1/2 the price and often BOGOF (Buy One Get One Free) with all sorts thrown in. Like most things, you get what you pay for...

octobop wrote:

Health care - I have 'insurance' through my school, so my doctor visits are 'free' - but quite useless.  I basically diagnose myself before hand, and they hand me a prescription.  They do not have my medical history, they run no basic tests, don't take my vitals, nothing.  They are very impersonal, and if I ever get ill again, I'm pretty sure I'm going to visit my boyfriend's doctor, have him translate for me, and pay whatever the costs out-of-pocket just to get a decent exam.  I need new glasses, but I'm going to let myself slowly go blind for another year until I visit the States again- no way I'm trusting a Hungarian with my eyesight... or dentals, or general health for that matter.  It's just unbelievable to me the way things run here.

"no way I'm trusting a Hungarian with my eyesight... or dentals, or general health for that matter. "
Uh, tough to hear that as a Hungarian. I wonder if you will avoid hungarian doctors in the states, too...?

You sound very frustrated and all, but rationally speaking, a simple eye exam (assuming you don't have very complex eye issues) should well be within the capabilities of many specialists in Hungary, both within the state HC system and, of course, private - but, you need to find them. You indeed need to know your way around here, as things are not as smooth as in richer countries. (Not that I was super-satisfied in Austria or Germany). I wonder,if your boyfriend's family or someone in your school (local teachers) cannot help you finding a reliable doctor or optimetrist (and explain you how to do things.) But, of course, a medical treatment needs trust.
Posing a specific question like "Do you know a reliable doctor for this-and-that, speaking language X or Y" in this some other (more specific) internet forum may also be a possibility. (I can ask around for a good optometrist with English knwoledge).

octobop wrote:

I don't mean to be a downer, but if it weren't for the cheap cost-of-living and education, the European 'adventure', and being in love with a native, I would have given up after my first year.  I have never loved America more than I do now!

The low cost of living are of course no coincidence, you cannot expect to get Switzerland for Hungarian prices. As a result, you probably have more money left for HC costs than most locals, so, don't be afraid to use it. (Am I wrong that HC costs in the US would be way higher, too?).

Apparently, this spiralled into a generic "buuuh" thread. Sure you can go on endlessly about that, most locals will join you, as complaining is a national sport around here. But perhaps some of the grievances can be translated into specific questions though?

I've never tried to get any medical help so far in Hungary but I would certainly be happy enough to use dentists here. If I get ill I wish I could be treated by a Hungarian vet rather than a doctor. That would overcome the language barrier, as vets don't ask their patients questions

fidobsa wrote:

..... I could be treated by a Hungarian vet rather than a doctor. That would overcome the language barrier, as vets don't ask their patients questions

Some HU doctors are very good. I've had treatment here and it's generally ok. It was also incredibly cheap at the time.

However, others I know have been less fortunate, with some doctors so looney they should be struck off, e.g. paediatricians (children's doctors) recommending homeopathic cures and prescribing antibiotics for viruses. Totally bananas. I'm no expert but even I know that's wrong.

I also heard a famous professor of medicine cleared off home (allegedly) before a difficult operation and left it to his underlings, who subsequently bodged it completely. The patient died. You'd think that would come out in an inquest or a autopsy but apparently not.

I am not anyone would want to be treated by a vet here. Animals in HU are mainly things/objects, not living beings, especially in the countryside. If the cat is sick, it will die. No-one will take it to the vet. They'll just bury the old one when it's time and get a new one. 

This does not apply to dogs in the cities who generally get treated better than kids. In particular, dogs have the strange right to crap on the grass outside my apartment building  and always on the path which I walk across on a regular basis. Owners of course are not responsible.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I am not anyone would want to be treated by a vet here. Animals in HU are mainly things/objects, not living beings, especially in the countryside. If the cat is sick, it will die. No-one will take it to the vet. They'll just bury the old one when it's time and get a new one.

Objection your honour!
I do not know the proper 'countryside', but my mother did take  her cats to the vet kinda regularly. The last one, having reached ripe old age, needed to be put asleep as she had some tumour. So not 'just buried'. Certainly, people lucky enough to be borne into better a economic situation or country have more money and energy left to care for their pets.
About dogs and kids - I haven't had any of them yet, so maybe I just don't know. Most of my friends go for kids, even though its much more expensive - perhaps because they don't crap on your street?

fireroller wrote:

...but my mother did take  her cats to the vet kinda regularly. The last one, having reached ripe old age, needed to be put asleep as she had some tumour. So not 'just buried'.....

City cats by any chance? For sure, not real country cats.

Usually the countryside folks are only interested in treating their animals if it's worth something or does something "useful" and is not a commodity - e.g. horse, big, donkey, cow. 

Ducks, chickens, rabbits, dogs and cats etc are just "things" otherwise.

With state-run underpaid super-important sectors like education and medicine there's usually only two kinds of people: the super-devoted and the too incompetent to work anywhere else.
That's why you get polarized experiences: it's either wow-great or criminally-bad, never meh-OK.

Animals, well, it depends. Pets are treated like family. Not all cats are pets, they are for pest control. And you'd better sit down before you realize what happens to animals that taste good...
http://warehouse.carlh.com/article_157/bacon_pig_00.jpg

:-)

EuropaExpat wrote:

Interesting. I have a question for you. It's likely I will be moving to Budapest in about 7/8 months (living in the Netherlands right now). How would you go about avoiding the “gratitude money” situation when getting some kind of health care/treatment? Does it only really happen in state-run medical places with maybe lower paid staff and where patents probably won't have private health insurance? Or does it happen everywhere? I don't have much knowledge on the health system in Hungary but I only seem to have heard bad things, so I'm wondering if I move there, and have private health insurance which covers the costs of virtually everything, does that give me the ability to go to some “better” medical places where things like this can be avoided?

Many thanks.

We do not have private medical insurance (though we took out travel insurance for emergencies as technically we are 'travelling') and my partner has been to a private clinic three times here. Once for a prescription repeat from home, which cost him almost nothing and the medication itself was far cheaper than Australia. Then he went twice to another clinic for an allergic reaction and it cost 19,000 Hungarian forint for each visit. This is expensive even by Australian standards for doctors, but there was no hint at the extra cash needing to be handed over. The doctor was Hungarian but spoke excellent English.
My partner said the services were very good at the clinic.
I imagine with expat medical insurance, you will be able to go to that kind of clinic and not be expected to pay the 'extra' that locals sometimes do.

Here is the link: http://www.medicover.com/
I guess you can take out insurance with them and then not pay the cash price that we paid.

I think coming from countries like Australia, Canada, the US, UK etc, Hungary is incredibly different to home. It's hard to get used to. There are lots of things that are confusing and bureaucracy here is crazy, but networking with others and asking question is what has kept me going. Whilst I have a Hungarian born partner who speaks the language, even he was not able to navigate the system when applying for a passport after 30 years out of the country!! Luckily, through this website, I met an expat who had assisted in getting her work visa and residence permit by an expat services consultant (through work) who we then boldly contacted and asked for assistance too.
This person helped my partner apply for his passport after leaving the country as a child, and helped me to get my residence permit. We paid her cash as we did not go through the company she worked for. Slightly dodgy, maybe - but for the extra cash (which isn't much in terms of expat budgets, to be honest) it meant I could go to the immigration office, have someone speak the language, explain what was going on and fill out the (very confusing) forms for me.

I'm sure most people who come here for work are able to make similar connections as there are plenty of expat services around.

It's a fascinating place - sometimes I love it, sometimes it drives me crazy - but I'm learning to be OK with it and accept that this will probably be my second home for a long time.

Nice to hear you are not disheartened by Hungary :-)
"This is expensive even by Australian standards for doctors, but there was no hint at the extra cash needing to be handed over"
that is of course the point - I really think, it is only the 'free' state-run services where such 'gratitude' may be expected. I wonder though, if a foreigner who does not understand culture-coded hints, would even notice that, since I have the feeling that it typically won't go so far as explicitly asking a foreigner (say, in English or 'sign language') for money. But maybe I am just naive - and you wont read a statistics ever. Any experience to the contrary?

All things being relative, I cannot suppress the evident remark that we all have been to countries where state health care& bureaucracy does not have the reputation to be better than here :-) (My brother tried to get a visa to India once for studying a semester there and well, very nearly failed - that was the shortened version :-) Don't worry, by the time average Indian salaries overtake Hungarian ones, it will be different...

"that is of course the point - I really think, it is only the 'free' state-run services where such 'gratitude' may be expected. I wonder though, if a foreigner who does not understand culture-coded hints, would even notice that, since I have the feeling that it typically won't go so far as explicitly asking a foreigner (say, in English or 'sign language') for money. "

Precisely, Fireroller - if you are an expat and you go to private clinics, I doubt you'd be paying the extra money to the doctor that locals might have to, which was EuropaExpat's question.

I considered having my teeth re-capped here because of the greatly reduced costs, but coming from Australia means that if I go home and something goes wrong, I have to fly all the way back here to make use of the workmanship guarantee that dentists mostly offer. Kind of negates the process! If I was from somewhere in Europe, that wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Dental tourism is so big here, from what I have read, that expats shouldn't have any trouble - why would dentists run the risk of ruining their reputation if they are in the business of making money from expats and 'dental tourists'?

Stephanie99 wrote:

..... if I go home and something goes wrong, I have to fly all the way back here to make use of the workmanship guarantee that dentists mostly offer. Kind of negates the process! If I was from somewhere in Europe, that wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Dental tourism is so big here, from what I have read, that expats shouldn't have any trouble - why would dentists run the risk of ruining their reputation if they are in the business of making money from expats and 'dental tourists'?

I'd be careful on what the guarantee actually means. I mean, if your nashers break down in 1 year, then probably that's not a guarantee claim. If they fall out 1 week later, you'd probably have more luck. From what I know about Hungary, getting someone to guarantee something is relatively easy. Getting them to act on it reasonably can be difficult. I have never had a problem with my dentist's work but I've had other issues with companies like the Pannon phone company (now Telenor).

I'd be sceptical of any guarantees that say, 10 years, or 20 years. There's nothing to say they have to stay in business or honour through a third party. What you might be able to do (assuming sufficient negotiating power) is ask for a manufacturer's guarantee.

I don't know how that'll work for a set of new toothypegs.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Stephanie99 wrote:

..... if I go home and something goes wrong, I have to fly all the way back here to make use of the workmanship guarantee that dentists mostly offer. Kind of negates the process! If I was from somewhere in Europe, that wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Dental tourism is so big here, from what I have read, that expats shouldn't have any trouble - why would dentists run the risk of ruining their reputation if they are in the business of making money from expats and 'dental tourists'?

I'd be careful on what the guarantee actually means. I mean, if your nashers break down in 1 year, then probably that's not a guarantee claim. If they fall out 1 week later, you'd probably have more luck. From what I know about Hungary, getting someone to guarantee something is relatively easy. Getting them to act on it reasonably can be difficult. I have never had a problem with my dentist's work but I've had other issues with companies like the Pannon phone company (now Telenor).

I'd be sceptical of any guarantees that say, 10 years, or 20 years. There's nothing to say they have to stay in business or honour through a third party. What you might be able to do (assuming sufficient negotiating power) is ask for a manufacturer's guarantee.

I don't know how that'll work for a set of new toothypegs.

Which is precisely why I'm not having any dentistry done until I go home to Aus and pay through the nose for it...
I read one site here that offered 3 year guarantees.

Stephanie99 wrote:

Which is precisely why I'm not having any dentistry done until I go home to Aus and pay through the nose for it... I read one site here that offered 3 year guarantees.

3 years is a surprise, I'd have thought more but I suppose it depends what it is, who does it and what materials they use.

My own experiences of Hungary for dental work are that it's all good quality work if you go to the right dentist. I'd avoid "factory" dental practices with newly qualified dentists. I didn't get good service there and wasted a lot of time.

I've had all sorts done here in Hungary - bridges, crowns, implants, fillings and so on. The one that lasted the longest is one crown I had done about 20 years ago. It's still there giving good service. Other stuff has lasted anywhere between 4 and 12 years.

So upshot is that you'll probably get what you pay for....

Stephanie99 wrote:

Precisely, Fireroller - if you are an expat and you go to private clinics, I doubt you'd be paying the extra money to the doctor that locals might have to, which was EuropaExpat's question.

Bingo. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but that's what I was asking. Thanks for the reply and info, much appreciated!

EuropaExpat wrote:

Stephanie99 wrote:

Precisely, Fireroller - if you are an expat and you go to private clinics, I doubt you'd be paying the extra money to the doctor that locals might have to, which was EuropaExpat's question.

Bingo. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but that's what I was asking. Thanks for the reply and info, much appreciated!

You're welcome. We've also used this clinic: http://www.firstmedcenters.com/index.php
Same kind of thing. Good luck!

fluffy2560 wrote:

So upshot is that you'll probably get what you pay for....

Uhm, I would like to disagree a little - that statement is not quite true if you compare with Australia!
The doctors/dentists operating in Hungary today have typically enjoyed free or very cheap education compared to anglo-saxon countries. Also their living costs, and living standards(both) are lower, on average. Hence you pay much less than in Aus/UK/US. Or Austria, Germany, for that matter, even though education is free cheap there as well. (But dentistry is not well covered by common insurances.) It is my strong opinion that  quality of medical know-how is NOT usually lower in Hungary which is what counts in private institutes  (and typical dental clinic does not need high-tech), but, of course, everyone is to make up their own opinion (I am not a medical doctor).

Btw, and getting OFF TOPIC once again, you might not know that one of the few success stories about exported 'goods' of Hungary - as well as some other eastern-EU countries - is medical higher education. All larger medical universities (Semmelweis, Szeged, Debrecen, Pécs) are welcoming foreign students, e.g. Germans, for fees which would look exorbitant for locals (but they don't have to pay them) - but are competitive (=low) on the world market, given the fairly good reputation of the schools. This makes these universities relatively wealthy, they can pay more to professors, etc. See e.g. http://www.unideb.hu/portal/en/node/1531
- maybe locals will get used to these fees in no time as well... Apparently, the medical degree from Debrecen is recognised in a number of important countries(UK, US?), read the last paragraph:
http://edu.dote.hu/index.php?option=com … &Itemid=70
(While Semmelweis is the largest med. univ., I gave you the links from Debrecen above, where the medical faculty seems to operate as a small but pretty well organised medical school centered around and partly financed by foreign students - according to my future boss, as I am starting work in here next month: http://rcmm.dote.hu/  While I can confirm after one visit that the 'smell' of the Institute is above eastern-EU-average, the level of my salary also explains why those fees are so competitive
Wow, I am suddenly finding myself on the PR side of Hungary, but at least I am better at it as some of our current governments...

Are these medical courses in English? When I went to college I never considered going anywhere in mainland Europe as I assumed the courses would be in a foreign language and doing a degree was hard enough in my native tongue! There is a chap in my village who claims on his Facebook to have gone to university in South Africa and yet he can't speak English, very strange!
I think the "you'll probably get what you pay for.." comment refers to dentists, not doctors.

Of course English is the new Lating, but Semmelweis also offers whole degrees in German - as German youth who missed out on the German medical education are the foremost/oldest 'clients' of medical schools in Hu and pro'ly in Czech, too. http://www.semmelweis-univ.hu/education … rogrammes/

Studying something in a foreign language - well, some lucky ones start learning a foreign languages quite early, becoming fluent early on. I have never studied my degrees in my mother tongue, and e.g. my Arab friend who studied medicine in Jordan, also did it in English.

But South Africa also speaks Africaans (very close to dutch) so uhm, try to speak dutch to your neighbour :-) Or perhaps one of the native african languages...?

fireroller wrote:

Uhm, I would like to disagree a little - that statement is not quite true if you compare with Australia!
The doctors/dentists operating in Hungary today have typically enjoyed free or very cheap education compared to anglo-saxon countries.

Actually, I think it is true of everything - you get what you pay for. I could qualify it by saying, "all things being equal, you get what you pay for...".

I naturally exclude from my statement things like profiteering, attitude, cheating and so on. This is what I mean by "all things being equal". The variable factors in Hungary is probably attitude and overcharging. Economics says efficient markets will lead to approximately equal value for services and goods.

I was well aware of medical schools etc graduating foreign students in Hungary. One of my dentists was Chinese and one of our doctors was from Iran. My daughter considered studying medicine in Hungary in English but opted for elsewhere. All medical professionals in training have Hungarian lessons because they need to deal with patients.

The largest contingent in Debrecen (I remember reading) was from Norway. Judging by the Norwegian cars I see driving along the highway, this could well be true.

Afrikaans is very similar to Dutch indeed. They use different spelling and the accent is different but if you think phonetically, it's quite easy to read Afrikaans (if you can read Dutch).

Sadly, I can only manage Double Dutch, which is what Hungarians think I'm speaking when I attempt to speak Hungarian.

fireroller wrote:

getting OFF TOPIC once again ...

Indeed. But since we are there....

fireroller wrote:

the medical degree from Debrecen is recognised in a number of important countries(UK, US?)

Debrecen and other medical schools in Hungary are indeed recognized by the Medical Board of California.

However, California does not represent the norm across the country. In the US a doctor is licensed by individual states, and most states follow the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) accreditation list, and those are currently only US and Canada schools. Graduates from non-LCME accredited schools often have to take additional medical courses, training and tests from a LCME accredited school before acquiring a license to practice medicine.

fidobsa wrote:

Sadly, I can only manage Double Dutch, which is what Hungarians think I'm speaking when I attempt to speak Hungarian.

You're not the only one!

It is very hard to imagine that Hungary has not been put on the Humane rights watch concerning the treatment and protection of young offenders who are incarcerated. I have personally know one individual who was put in a fosterhome by his mother at age 12. At age 13 he stoled a bike by pushing the owner of it. He was charged and the case was pending before the courts. While in the foster home he was always picked on by the other stronger and older boys, the care worker there (if you can call them as such) were a team of old retired ladies who couldn,t handle a hamster let alone a child.

The Boy ranaway from the home and managed to live on the streets begging and doing odd jobs for a few years. At age 17 he decided to return to the home and settle things such as his i.d. funds that he has coming when turning 18 upon which time he will be a free man. After his return in a matter of 72 hours he was placed under arrest and locked up in one of the most toughest young offender facilities where 95% are of gypsie descent. Even at age 17 he looks like 13 small and skinny.

The Hungarian authorities decided he was an escape risk....escape from what? a foster home, he returned on his own!! Now he is being held and being terrorized and made to do things he would never do. The staff in this facility are uncaring as l talked to one of the supervisors in the prison by phone she was joking and giggling saying "yes it is possible he is having a hard time here "

I seriously question the authorities who have put this young boy in danger by locking him up with hard core serious offenders. This boy stoled a bike from another kid when he was 13!! does this deserve the terror he is going threw now? The impact could affect the rest of his life.

A number of these lock-ups have had serious incidents which even lead to deaths of young boys and the Hungarian system always has covered the incompitence of staff members protecting the dark secrets which lurke in the young offender prison system.

I can address the medical a situation bit more. We are Americans and as I am retired military I get reimbursed by the US government for 7 of costs above my per person annual deductible.  Basically, we have to pay cash for everything. I had cataract surgery and reattachment of my retina and it cost less than than 1000 dollars. My wife broke her leg in Sarajevo and needed physical therapy and after 1 year removal of her plates and screws.  That surgery was under 400 dollars.  We have a physician that comes to our house and charges 9,000 huf per visit. Everything, including medications are at least 300 percent less than equivalents in the US  The quality is fine and the doctors are excellent.  We have several physician friends and the salary for doctors in the State system is roughly 1,200 euros which in Hungary is an excellent salary.  That coupled with the "gifts" makes their incomes relatively good.In a country where people earn an average of 400 dollars a month this is very good. Remember Orban only earns 75,000 dollars a year so everything must be kept in perspective. Typically, if we are paying cash I don't pay the bribe. But, sometimes it is necessary. it depends on the situation. Dental has been fine and relatively cheap and very professional. But, you have to be selective as there are rip-off artists out there. We have a gardener who we use for recommendations and tranlations and he speaks perfect English).That is one of the most important things to get is someone you can trust who can negotiate for you.

Racism is another issue and again you just have to understand and accept it.  We are Jewish which hasn't been a big problem but it is common sentiment that all of Hungary's economic problems are caused by the Jews. I can't change that belief and it seems to persist throughout all socioeconimic strata here. People are usually shocked when they learn we are Jewish but then don't seem to hold it against us.  Perhaps it is because we are also Americans?  The Gypsy issue is complicated and is probably equivalent the the US problem with Blacks. Time and effort can change this but it requires effort on both sides and I don't see the gypsies trying at all, but then again they have been persecuted so long maybe they just can't do it. It seems to be a big problem and crime does seem to be a problem with gypsies. We don't have many here but they come out of the woodwork during the junk day in the Spring and it is an impressive sight. There is an area near us where a lot have been given apartments and it rapidly fell into a shambles. This seems to be a huge problem for Hungary.

borschelrh wrote:

People are usually shocked when they learn we are Jewish but then don't seem to hold it against us.

It's Jews/Gypsies/Muslims "in general" that are blamed for recession/crime/terrorism. Xenophobic people usually "even have friends like that, and they are perfectly normal, they must be the exception", often bring this up in conversation as proof of their open-mindedness.

What you write about Gypsies is actually about uneducated people born and raised in deep poverty, there's just a big overlap. Solving the problems requires sustained action spanning multiple generations, but publicly funded efforts have an upper limit of 4 years of lifetime in Hungary. So we'll have Star Trek like replicators before this chain of inheriting the social outcast status could be broken. At which time the descendants of today's underclass will instruct the replicator to materialize big stacks of then-worthless cash so they can bathe in it like Scrooge McDuck shouting "in your face!"
I know I would.

szocske wrote:

What you write about Gypsies is actually about uneducated people born and raised in deep poverty, there's just a big overlap. Solving the problems requires sustained action spanning multiple generations

Sharon Bhon Gmelch wrote in Annual Review of Anthropology an article titled: Groups That Don't Want In: Gypsies and Other Artisan, Trader, and Entertainer Minorities

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10 … 186.001515

The idea that Gypsies (Romani) simply needs some generations of "assimilation" time to be "like us" is very western thinking, and one that has proven wrong over the centuries.

The Romani are a unique culture. And a traditional nomadic one. Assuming they are one way or another as a problem to be "solved", or simply by claiming this is due to education or poverty is simplistic as best, and bias at most. One of the hardest working, and interesting person I know in Hungary is a Romani who drives his burro drawn cart collecting what scrap or other cast off he can to make a living. He is poor, yet he is genuinely happy, which is more than most Hungarians (or Americans like myself) can claim.

Maybe the Romani don't want to be like you and me, but want to maintain who they are as a people and as a culture despite "our best efforts". And I say, more power to them for this. Thinking otherwise is like the forced "modernization" of the Native Americans starting in the 1500's and continuing till today, of which history I will leave you to self research.

As soon as anyone CAN get food, shelter, medical attention and education IF THEY WANT TO, without resorting to crime, no matter who their parents were, I'll be happy and you won't see me pestering anyone for rejecting it.

szocske wrote:

As soon as anyone CAN get food, shelter, medical attention and education IF THEY WANT TO, without resorting to crime.

Under properly applied Hungarian law, if they are in NEED, they can. 

But no government or society can guarantee any of the above to anyone, especially in perpetuity, just because they "WANT" it. For example, there are no guarantees someone can get or hold a job simply because "THEY WANT" one.

The issue is not about "WANT" but rather about providing equal opportunity; a level playing field for all. If you find such civil right laws being abused, this can be and should be reported. Act locally if you want to see global changes.

However, I will also add a caveat (since this is a "Dark Side" topic): where on finds a society relying on top down solutions (typically thinking that only the government can affect change) one may expect to see more hindrances to rapid adoption of equality or the law despite existing legislation. Government is often not equip to really solve the problem on the ground in support of their own legislation. Passing a law is easy, enforcing it is difficult. For example it was not the US Government, but some clever litigation by Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center that finally broke one of the oldest and most infamous racist organizations in the US. More effective change may not happen until a nation's citizens have a stronger, direct voice and avenue for change via the courts.

Well, one way to keep people from being empowered to inflict change "bottom-up" is taxing them to death. I get to spend about one third of my earnings, two thirds going towards the "top-down" solutions by force of law. It's not like I can withhold any of that so I can start a computer course for the children in our village who may have hopes and dreams different from their current lifestyle.

Call me narrow-minded, but I don't see how earning enough to eat and bathe regularly as an IT consultant by telecommuting from a laptop with a 3G modem is in any way threatening to the traditional nomadic culture? One could do that sitting in the back of a circus cart on the go wearing a dozen layers of colorful skirts and red ribbons in one's hair while nursing a baby and still double the total income of the extended family.

For every happy English-speaking, means-of-production-owning cart guy you ever knew, I have to look back into pairs of huge, beautiful brown eyes looking at us longingly from behind shambled fences every time I take my kids biking on our old, weather beaten, hand-me-down bikes worth around $30-40 each, the likes of which they will never have, or even if so, only briefly, having to sell them off as scrap metal for even less to buy food or pay the bills at the end of the month.