Multi Point Water Heaters

@kevinwood We installed Joven in all locations, 2 multipoint. They work out fine although I would try Panasonic next time if I needed a new one. The jovens never broke after 7 years.

*My usual Philippines electrical safety lecture for water heaters*

These jovens have a German safety approval which, believe it or not, is important especially in the Philippines with our crappy wiring. They are often installed in water locations so dripping water on them or an internal insulation single fault at the heater could cause a 240V lethal shock hazard in the water in the presence of metal faucets, showerheads etc.. These Joven units have an internal GCFI that senses leakage current and shuts it down but in my opinion none if them are sensitive enough, shutting down at 15ma when 10ma could kill weakened (ie, older person) like me. For that reason I have the electrician install separate GFCI's to protect all bathrooms, kitchen and outdoor screened in areas at 5 ma.

We have 3 Panasonic single point units in the showers but rarely used, just checked the water temp coming out of the kitchen tap and is 30C from our well @ 7 am so not town water. They are only 3.6Kw units, have a built in ELB as well as the 30 amp wall sockets are earthed but only into the slab via rebar so doubt the efficiency.

I was a hot water man in Oz but here with cold water doesn't seem a problem for dishes, clothes washing, showers and vanities. A late night shower I'll turn on the water heater half way.

@Kevinwood

Simply purchase a reputable brand and yes you can google "best water heaters in the Philippines".

Through the day I find the cool showers refreshing given the temps here.

Good luck.

Cheers, Steve.

@bigpearl ...They are only 3.6Kw units, have a built in ELB as well as the 30 amp wall sockets are earthed but only into the slab via rebar so doubt the efficiency.

Not being an expert, 3.6kw seems to be the standard for single point and double that, 7.2kw for multipoint. When an electrician who understands code installs something that draws 7.2 kw or 31A at 230V, he knows that everything may have to be resized. For one thing the standard 30A breakers are too small so you go to the next size that accommodates 31A or 1.25 x31 = 38 so it would be at least 40A, that is using a dedicated breaker for the multipoint. Much of the wiring used in the bathroom will be protected by 30A breakers which code required 10 AWG (rather thick, expensive) copper wire. The rest of the house is likely 20A fed by 12AWG. But this 7.2kw multipoint heater that draws at least 31A requires 8 AWG wire, very thick. In our case, that current combined with other loads in that part of the house required us to run a second conductor direct from the transformer output. That is how our electrician saw it. As a US EE, this thinking makes good sense to me for good safe conservative design but if you look at it another way, I personally doubt that everybody who installs multipoint analyses the requirement here as the code would require because people don't always follow code and, when you are familiar with the usage, 7.2kw is only drawn for relatively short periods of time. Now, you could have situations where the shower is running full hot and maybe the bathtub is being filled full hot and the sinks are drawing full hot; there you will likely be drawing 7.2kw for as long as the water is running but I think the typical current draw will be much less, maybe 15A. However, the electrician and I agreed to go with. 40A breaker and 8 Ga wire and the extra connection to transformer, that way we will be able to expand in the future. Anybody considering multipoint should probably have this discussion with their electrician along with a discussion on protecting against electric shock...electricity and water when mixed...well, you know.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say with regards to the connection with the transformer Dan.

Cheers, Steve.

    I'm not sure what you mean when you say with regards to the connection with the transformer Dan.
Cheers, Steve.
   

    -@bigpearl

The transformer is the large object or box, usually on a wooden or metal pole, outside of the home where one side is connected to HV 13.2 KV (or whatever they use) and the output is 230V 60hz. The 230 V connects to the home. Hope that explains it.

So Dan you ran new cables to the transformer on the street or do you mean to your switchboard?

Cheers, Steve.

    So Dan you ran new cables to the transformer on the street or do you mean to your switchboard?
Cheers, Steve.
   

    -@bigpearl

We added an extra set of conductors, I believe they were 3 AWG, good for more than 100A, from the transformer outside on the street to a new 100A service (I think you  call switchboard) Inside the house, ie that we installed in our newly built extension where our multipoint heater is located. We did that rather than try to feed into the existing service since 7.2kw brought us past the  calculated limit of what our existing service would support (not sure, 75 or 100A). I tend to think that most electricians here would not even consider a new service, they would just hook it up with a 30A breaker and change to 40A if there was nuisance tripping. That is how things are often done here

LOL Dan, I hear you and very well with regards to sparkies and the electrical systems here. We were 75amp but upgraded to 125amp but used 150amp cable because of the distance as well as being in a conduit underground and supplied Luelco the same cable to go overhead from our concrete pole to their main line but not the transformer, that is 500 meters away.

Not a cheap exercise and on reflection probably wasted money once we went solar and off the grid,,,,, my bad.

Can still swap back to grid any time with a few breakers but we are currently running the home on 10Kw of invertors and nary a problem. The solar system is earthed correctly. So only 64 amps but working perfectly

consuming/making around 50Kw per day.

The water heaters we have installed are above the shower outlet and a bit of a reach for Ben to turn off if I forget. What they call an ELB built into the units I can only assume it's an ELCB as we call them in Oz, perhaps you can correct me Dan.

The other thing that I find interesting is 2 hot wires, no earths compared to an active/neutral/earth line as well as RCD's and ELCB's mandatory in Oz, older homes have to be upgraded when being sold.

Same as cable ratings here I question. One of the builders here plugged the 1HP water pump into a 3 meter extension lead rated at 10 amps and it melted and caught fire, the pump is 3 amps.

Excuse my ramble.

Cheers, Steve.

@danfinn

@bigpearl

Thanks for your replies and especially about the safety. It's just made me think and realize that I take too much for granted and assume that a new installation will be like the UK standards or that in other parts of the world. I need to check with the builder about the wiring size, earthing, breakers etc.

I was originally planning to install 2 x multipoint (6kW), one in each bathroom to provide hot water to 1 x shower and 1 x faucet in each and it's unlikely that shower and faucet will be used simultaneously. I'm now reconsidering this decision as pointed out the water is already fairly warm and not like the UK where you're trying to increase from a few degrees C in the winter. So now thinking 1 x 3.6kW water heater in each bathroom.

I also have a well and an outside water storage tank, which is a totally new concept to me and I'm sure will be filled with a mix of water lots of surprises along the way.

Panasonic was on my list as well as some other well-known brands (Electrolux, Stiebel and Ariston).

Really appreciate your input and experiences.

Cheers and have a great day

Kevin

@bigpearl

“The other thing that I find interesting is 2 hot wires, no earths”

This is a new concept to me and sounds a totally scary thought

    @danfinn Hello Danfin I would NOT recomand Panasonic. I instaled 3,  10 Kw multipoint water heater in my home. They ALL failed in less than 10 years, and services center are NOT able to repair. They are still on sale at ACE.  Around 12000 Php. Regards.
   

    -@Rudolf ARNOLD81

I don't think that's a very fair comment on any brand. How many products these days go a 10 year distance? Gone are the days of the old round shouldered refrigerators that ran for 30/40 years.

I have replaced 2 x 55inch and 1 x 65 inch tv's over the last 5 years, out of warranty and too expensive to fix. Consumerism. Part of our lives.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.

    @bigpearl
“The other thing that I find interesting is 2 hot wires, no earths”

This is a new concept to me and sounds a totally scary thought
   

    -@kevinwood

It has certainly been a learning curve for me Kevin, coming from a well regulated electrical system in Australia with active/neutral and earth, RCD's and ELCB's, here it seems 2 black wires, no earth and doesn't matter a sh1t which way you connect.

Water heater and A/C connections seem to be installed with an earth into the rebar going into the foundations,,,,, saying that we had a 2.5 HP A/C installed 4/5 years ago here with a new breaker but no earth. It's certainly a worry but and but imagine the cost to earth everything in an existing home. Seems to work here and I don't worry too much. When your dead no need to worry.

Cheers, Steve.

    @bigpearl
“The other thing that I find interesting is 2 hot wires, no earths”

This is a new concept to me and sounds a totally scary thought
   

    -@kevinwood

It is really 2 phase conductors, it is a common international distribution system IF implemented ptoperly. Depending on your location, we see coming from the transformer a hot phase and a neutral phase. Often the neutral is uninsulated bare wire. By international transmission standards, for this type of distribution, neutral should be hard-earthed at the power pole. However, I have never seen that here. If you want ground, you create your own but the Philippine system allows just 2 pin outlets (2 phases or 2 hots, if you will). This is how the US homes were wired in the 1950's but changed to grounded outlets in the 60s. US colonial wiring would have also used 2pin outlets. Sometimes newer constructions here will install 3 pin outlets with 2 phases and earth. For earth, they simply connect to rebar and hope that it is continuous to earth. Obviously, most countries would not accept this as a safety ground; electricians would laugh. But this is not most countries. If you want a reliable ground you use 8 or 10 foot ground rods (which I originally installed at my home for a good ham radio ground). A protective ground should be able to pass 25A or 1.5 times the breaker rating. From his comment, Steve is well aware that the rebar "ground" is not code worthy but in practical terms, if there is a leakage current due to an impedance fault, the rebar ground should usually  be good enough to safely short that to ground. It's just that how reliable it is would be undefined; certainly better than no ground at all even if it would fail electrical inspections in all first world countries.

@Rudolf ARNOLD81

I think I would be pretty happy if I had near 10 years service out of the water heaters, and may even be good to replace them due to inefficiencies with build up of minerals etc on the elements after this time.

Just made me wonder if the water from a well is hard water.

Thanks for your input and have a great day

@bigpearlThe water heaters we have installed are above the shower outlet and a bit of a reach for Ben to turn off if I forget. What they call an ELB built into the units I can only assume it's an ELCB as we call them in Oz, perhaps you can correct me Dan.

Our electrician also installed our multipoint heater high in the bathroom and away from the water. Bel cannot reach it so we leave it always on. But for single point, he installed those like under the showerhead. I like what you did as being safer.

The other thing that I find interesting is 2 hot wires, no earths compared to an active/neutral/earth line as well as RCD's and ELCB's mandatory in Oz, older homes have to be upgraded when being sold.

That is really 2 phases but supposed to be one hot phase and one neutral phase grounded at the power pole. Homeowners must provide their own ground. Lacking that in most cases, heaters here fortunately use USA term GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt), also called RCD in UK (residual current detector) or ELCB in ANZ. Not sure what ELCB means lol. The purpose of these things to to provide another layer of protection against lethal shock; the thinking is that, when death is a possible result, 2 independent layers of protection are required where both protection schemes will not randomly fail simultaneously. Of course, that is nearly 100% protection. However, in the Philippines we are usually missing the reliable "ground" protection scheme and must rely on GFCI/RCD/ELCB as only only reliable protection in the event of a single fault exposing the water (and people) to 230V. That is why I am such a missionary about this; in the Phils these heaters are very popular. Nobody here keeps track of anybody electrocuted in the shower but I have seen news stories about electricutions for other defects; people here treat the 230V in their homes far too casually.

Same as cable ratings here I question. One of the builders here plugged the 1HP water pump into a 3 meter extension lead rated at 10 amps and it melted and caught fire, the pump is 3 amps.

    @danfinn Hello Danfin I would NOT recomand Panasonic. I instaled 3,  10 Kw multipoint water heater in my home. They ALL failed in less than 10 years, and services center are NOT able to repair. They are still on sale at ACE.  Around 12000 Php. Regards.
   

    -@Rudolf ARNOLD81

As others have mentioned, 10 years is not so bad for a product like this. In the States we are lucky if our centralized tank and tankless water heaters last 10 years and it cost a lot more to replace them WHEN they fail. One thing I wonder about is, what happens to them when these heaters fail? I can only speculate that the hard water builds up mineral deposits in the chamber where the water is heated. The deposits mess up the heat transfer so more electricity is drawn to the heater to make it hotter to produce the same water heat. Eventually this gets so bad that the heater overheats, opens and dies. But with all that heat, one could suspect that the insulation between the energized heater windings and the water it is heating becomes degraded, causing a short and a safety hazard. That is speculation of course but I can almost guarantee that if you ask the manufacturers about end of life failure and electrical shorting, nobody will answer the question. Been on the manufacturer's side before and know how they protect against liability (not for water heaters).

As others have mentioned, 10 years is not so bad for a product like this. In the States we are lucky if our centralized tank and tankless water heaters last 10 years and it cost a lot more to replace them WHEN they fail

I have a 30 year old 70 gallon electric water heater in the basement.  I'm loath to replace it before it fails because of the low quality of the new ones.  They and all appliances are designed to fail.

    As others have mentioned, 10 years is not so bad for a product like this. In the States we are lucky if our centralized tank and tankless water heaters last 10 years and it cost a lot more to replace them WHEN they fail

I have a 30 year old 70 gallon electric water heater in the basement.  I'm loath to replace it before it fails because of the low quality of the new ones.  They and all appliances are designed to fail.
   

    -@kjwilde

You must have at least replaced the heater several times in 30 years.

        As others have mentioned, 10 years is not so bad for a product like this. In the States we are lucky if our centralized tank and tankless water heaters last 10 years and it cost a lot more to replace them WHEN they failI have a 30 year old 70 gallon electric water heater in the basement.  I'm loath to replace it before it fails because of the low quality of the new ones.  They and all appliances are designed to fail.        -@kjwilde

You must have at least replaced the heater several times in 30 years.
   

    -@danfinn

Perhaps he takes cold showers.

    As others have mentioned, 10 years is not so bad for a product like this. In the States we are lucky if our centralized tank and tankless water heaters last 10 years and it cost a lot more to replace them WHEN they fail

I have a 30 year old 70 gallon electric water heater in the basement.  I'm loath to replace it before it fails because of the low quality of the new ones.  They and all appliances are designed to fail.
   

    -@kjwilde

Depends on the type of water heater kj.

Cheers, Steve.

kjwilde said. . . . I have a 30 year old 70 gallon electric water heater in the basement.  I'm loath to replace it before it fails because of the low quality of the new ones.  They and all appliances are designed to fail.

*********************************

Well, bring it with you as a carry on when you move to the Philippines
   

Don't laugh Bob but I had a brand new 70 gal electric water heater I was going to install into the house in Oz but never got around to it. Copper cylinder and copper supply tank, mains pressure convection coil, solar and stove connections and worth a few bucks, while I never stuck it in carry on we did ship it with all our other gear in the container,,,,,,,, now it takes up space in the garage here as no need, maybe scrap value?

After all my life in a cooler climate we had hot water, here we mostly use cold.

Cheers, Steve.

Another Multipoint Panasonic vote here. (DH-6SM1)

6kw plugged into Omni GFCI outlet, 30a breaker...

    Another Multipoint Panasonic vote here. (DH-6SM1)6kw plugged into Omni GFCI outlet, 30a breaker...        -@vehicross100

6 kW with 30A breaker works for me but not code. 6000/230 = 26A but 26*1.25 = 33A, higher than 30A but I would go for it anyway. Codes require 125% margin but here we use a dedicated. GFCI breaker (nothing else on the branch). In the USA you can go down to 100% rated current when only one appliance is on the breaker. Not sure if that is true with PEC Philippine code. Most important you have your own GFCI.

It's interesting Dan, I just revisited all the breaker boxes x 3 and all the A/C units have 30 amp breakers x 6 of and one at 20 amps. 1 x 2.5HP 1 x 2Hp 1 x 1.5 Hp and 4 x 1HP, acceptable and likely over kill but the 3 water heaters while plugged into 30 amp power points only have 20 amp breakers, very glad they are only 3.6Kw heaters and if used only half way. Go figure electricians here, I buy all the components as per what they need but a mismatch it seems.

Sure 20 amps is good for a little over 4Kw but a 30 amp breaker might cost an extra 10 pesos. All the fun of the fare here.

Cheers, Steve.

    It's interesting Dan, I just revisited all the breaker boxes x 3 and all the A/C units have 30 amp breakers x 6 of and one at 20 amps. 1 x 2.5HP 1 x 2Hp 1 x 1.5 Hp and 4 x 1HP, acceptable and likely over kill but the 3 water heaters while plugged into 30 amp power points only have 20 amp breakers, very glad they are only 3.6Kw heaters and if used only half way. Go figure electricians here, I buy all the components as per what they need but a mismatch it seems.
Sure 20 amps is good for a little over 4Kw but a 30 amp breaker might cost an extra 10 pesos. All the fun of the fare here.

Cheers, Steve

I have a great electrician, very intelligent, like a Master Electrician in the US. They have no such thing as that here, where it is hardly considered or respected as a trade. They get paid as much as "carpenters", regular construction workers, about 600php per day, normally. I pay our guy by the job and much more than that, respecting the additional knowledge these people must have and which most employers seem to take for granted. Anyway, in your case, it seems like 20A is ok even for one 2.5HP (approx 2500 watt inverter) aircon. Just take HP x 100 or wattage, devide by 230V and get the current. if you get up to 20A with a dedicated breaker, that should be fine. In my case I installed a 2.5HP Citi Hardware aircon with a dedicated 20A breaker and there was nuisance tripping for some reason so I upped it to 30A. That is against code because a 30A breaker requires 10AWG wiring and 20A breakers require a thinner 12AWG but no way was I going to rewire. I know this was not creating a fire hazard. Just the same, in the US an electrician could lose his license for doing that. It is great for me, an EE, to be able to talk to an electrician who really understands. We became such good friends that Bel and I were the primary sponsors at his wedding. So we are Ninong and Ninang and and members of his family just as he and his wife are part of our family. Very cool.

Yes Dan it's very different here compared to the west, Here a little nudge changes the rules.

As for your breaker on that A/C it was probably faulty, we had a 20A breaker feeding the bunk house and it kept dropping every other day, the electrician checked it and said it was fine and the usage in the bunkhouse was well below the limit. Gave the sparky a new 20A breaker that he installed and never dropped out in 6 or more months, just wish I could get him back to finish this job, another project it seems.

Slowly the wheels turn here.

Nice you made good friends Dan, enjoy.

Cheers, Steve.

Thanks for everyones inputs, I never thought this question would raise so many technical points.

I took the plunge and decided to go with the Panasonic Multipoint DH-6SM1PW 6kW.

Cheers

    Thanks for everyones inputs, I never thought this question would raise so many technical points.
I took the plunge and decided to go with the Panasonic Multipoint DH-6SM1PW 6kW.

Cheers
   

    -@kevinwood

Thanks for starting a useful topic that allowed us to share which heaters are available and to discuss some of the issues when introducing 1st world tech into a 3rd world developing country. Electric utilities in Siquijor and Negros Oriental require new residential customers to attend electrical safety classes  before their co-op memberships are approved which points to known electrical shock incidents. Good luck with your 6000W Panasonic.

The place I'm moving to in Cebu has hot water showers but only cold at the sinks and kitchen sink. I can't imagine using only cold water in a kitchen. Is that a minor inconvenience you easily adjust to?

Hi Jozica, welcome to the forum, enjoy.

Cold water in the vanities, laundry or kitchen sink has never been a problem here but we always wipe out excess grease and oil before washing dishes, save the septic system, laundry  we always chuck in a little conditioner as well as detergent, cool showers are fantastic through the day as the water temp here is 30C from outlets.

Cheers, Steve.

@bigpearl

Thanks! 30ºC is already lukewarm.

l see tons of 240v water heater options on Amazon US. Is it smart to buy them here or too risky without confirming what's in the breaker box at the house in PH?