Do and don't in Saudi Arabia

sourire, what would your position have been if you were born as an arab woman in saudi arabia? you wud have prob thought that all Irish p[eople are nutz. heh heh
think about it!!!

good one musicman.

to all who contributed to my questions..thank you so much..u already make me feel at home.

nomads..i try to send a pvt message but just disconnect me when I send it..I will try again tomorrow. just so long..baie baie dankie, dit help rerig en stel my bietjie meer gerus.

salman..it is so nice speaking afrikaans, u must learn it and thanks for the offer from the 'beard man', will contact u if they dont keep their promise. and thnx for the info on visa, i feel much more at ease.

have a nice ramadan to all.

boskind, your very welcome.

"the proof of the pudding is in the eating"
thats what my grandpa taught me in the 60's
God Bless his Soul

Greetings: First off, let me congratulate juanfranlopez for his new job in Brussels. It seems KSA wasn't very good to him but let me say that having been here I certainly would understand accepting a job in Brussels over more time in KSA. It's a challenging place and the Saudis make no apologies for it. That having been said, I appreciate the folks here who have posted some positive comments about the Kingdom. When all is said and done, the jobs and salaries here are attractive. That's pretty much what draws most of us here. Let's be honest about that and the Saudis don't begrudge you that either.
Now one note that wont' be too positive is meant for member sourire, I can find no way to allay a woman's (or even a man's fears) that women here are not accorded any where near the liberties of women in the West. But you've got to realize that this has been the case in the Kingdom for a very long time. There must be reasons this state of affairs has existed. So, we men folk simply try to make the best of things as we enjoy salaries and benefits that few people without a degree in medicine or electrical engineering are afforded in their own countries.
-Sincerely,
-A

The reasons for most of these male chauvinistic oppressive regimes in the ME and as well as Africa, and Asia, is based on their culture, tribal practices and most certainly power. The Colonial Europeans who ruled many of these nations, while doing a great job in building and developing the infrastructure (for ther own profit of course) and even spreading out education and healthcare (for unethical conversion oif course), did not do what they should have done in terms of handing over power to a group to a local entity who were trained and ready ro wield that power. Instead they simply packed up and left the poor nations to bleed to death as we can see across the globe today.

In the case of those middle eastern nations whose people fought back to regain their own rule, here again, it was the wrong people who eventually sat on the thrones, especially for the lack of democracy, human rights, and the rulke of law.

Its not easy now, after so many centuries to put right all these wrongs of the past. It has to evolve throiugh the years just like it did in Europe and the USA. Those two western entities did not establish their current situation overnight. SAnd they still face problems of racism, minority rights, etc although to a very much lesser degree than the 3rd world.

I doubt I will be here to see the ME, Africa, and Asis rise from the ashes. Good luck to my greatgrankids. I will probably look down from a cloud and smile...

alamographics,

glad we could be of help.


Sourire,

too bad that saudi will not have the pleasure of granting you its lung burning sensations
I agree to your earlier post stating: to each his own. I do agree that women face their share of hardships here, but it aint all that bad, but then again from what I can see, it ain't your place either, both ways this magnificent country carries its  mysterious charms even today in this modern world, something that people from the outside will never understand, until their inside

musicman,

I couln't have said it better myself.



Salman

Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, Saudi has proved to much for this poor guy...

One thing I liked a lot in Saudi is that women cannot drive. In my opinion this is a very wise ban: streets, roads, parking lots, alleys and highways are much safer in this way

juan

Hey juanfranlopez - he he!  I would probably kill you if I had to meet you!  With your anti-women driving comment I am surprised you didn't fit in! 

Anyhoo - to my fellow South African dudes in KSA - hoe gaan dit met julle man!  Ek is nou besig met a deal om in Riyadh te kom werk.  Dit klink sommer vir my baie lekker, en al is daar een of twee dinge wat ek nie sal van hou nie, dink ek ek sal maar lekker bly. 

Salman Omrani - you sound like such a nice guy.  It's a pity women and men don't socialise.  I have so many male friends in South Africa.  I would love to be able to have male friends in KSA but it sounds like that is completely out of the question.  I like your positivity.  I must be honest, people who are negative, and criticise a country for not allowing marajuana - well, shame.  It's illegal most everywhere my dears so we shouldn't be upset about that.  Drugs are not good.  So best to just leave them alone. 

I can live quite comfortably without alcohol, ALTHOUGH.......  I will admit to being a smoker.  Is smoking only not allowed in public during Ramadan?  Because I will DIE if I can't smoke.  Perhaps it'll be a good way of stopping!

What do you think Salman Omrani?

And to Sourire, I do tend to agree with you to a certain extent about women's rights.  However, in South Africa, where many of the African nations still run in line with patriarchy, it is only the - what they call 'skebengas' - the 'baddies' who misstreat the women, even though many of the cultures are patriarchal..  I think it is important to recognise that whilst women do not share equal rights in some African nations, they do occupy a special position in society which is highly respected by the males.  The mother and wife's role is all-important and she holds a great deal of power in the family.  Certainly, for the Zulus, the role of the mother, and wife is a powerful position.  Men who challenge her will certainly get a tongue lashing second to none and loose the respect of many in the community.  Of course there are those who overstep the boundaries like in any culture.  Western families suffer from the same amount of physical abuse as do Middle Eastern ones.  I don't believe that is cultural - I just believe that some people are sick and they abuse those who are physically weaker - like children and women.  The fundamental point of Islam and Christianity - the West, Middle-East and Eastern worlds is respect.  This is expressed in different ways all over the world.  We must learn to be tolerant.  Sure, you might not want to live in Saudi, or any Islamic country, but I believe you should rather try and accept the culture for what it is.  The ME seems to be one of the most prosperous areas in the world - they must be doing something right.  Furthermore, like Nelson Mandela said about South Africa and about sanctions during apartheid:  change cannot be forced upon a country.  The people must fight from within.  The same applies to Zimbabwe and the Middle East. 

And anyway, why do us westerners always think we've got it right.  We are living in the decline of western civilisation.  On all levels our society is sick.  Perhaps we can afford to learn something from Islam and the Middle East. 

I am a huminist, not a feminist.  I am very well educated, and fully aware of feminist theory, much of which I agree with.  However, nothing is ever black and white.

Hey Catherine, you know that I was kidding: I really love women and the way they drive

Besides, I fully agree with you that something is very wrong with the western society. Our western values (mostly grounded on our Greek-Roman-Christian heritage) have been turned into a kind of morale relativism where concepts such as GOODNESS and BADNESS can be shaped according to our current conveniences. Then we can justify outrages such as the abortion, the abandonment of old people putting them in special residences, etc. without any moral problem. I come from a Latin country where the Family has been the main pillar of society and now I see how it is being destroyed by the lack of love and the worship of the ego.

Anyway, this is just an opinion.

Juan,

you sound like a fun and interesting guy, tiz a shame we couldn't meet. just remember if your ever lured back into aladin land, gimme a hauler

Catherine,

hmmm, the socializing with opposite gender is a tricky one, although such a thing exits in saudi, it should be met with certian saftey mesurements
for example, many families like socialising with other families, so there are gatherings and families have b.b.q's and stuff (not necessarily Saudi), and every ones happy, on rare cases, I remember a japanese friend of mine, we used to dine out together sometimes with his wife as well in the family section (boy did she like to ask alot of questions not that I mind though ) and sometimes some friends request me to be a guide to the desert. in compounds on the other hand, you can socialize with "anyone" ... maybe not the security, but thats a rare case.

I hate drugs, so I'm a happy man.

yes!! you can smoke in ramadan. but not in public, if you have muslim colleagues who come by your office, then you can't smoke in the office either, the smell of smoke can have its tole on a person with a dry throught and empty stomch
so best to do it home, or in the privacy of a non muslim inhabited office or so.

Juan,

I'm not a western, but I do understant your point on a family pillard society. I totaly support that kind of an upbringing.

...in my view, the bottom line for this moral and social decay is materalism, the craving for wealth, power and all things material... when will it ever end?

Looks like most ppl go to riyadh..

wht is it like to stay in the 'smaller' cities/towns like tabuk or naijran?

I guess you didnt read desertgirl's reply.

Well said Salman Omrani!

why thankyou Catherine Morrow

though you can call me Salman

I know, I just like the ring of Salman Omrani...  he he! v

Patriarchy? Okay, Sourire. I think you can guess from my last post that this place isn't the glowing sand dunes of mystical legend. I was upfront about why the men are here. And if you took a poll of all the males in Saudi Arabia I don't know how many would agree to the no booze, no this or that lifestyle. But I'd put my money that most men, at least most expat men, wouldn't mind seeing women coming out of the burka and spending some time in the workplace, including the cafes, the supermarkets, and even or especially the fast food joints. I think even most guys here wouldn't mind having their chicken burger served by little Ms. Smiley for a change. Nobody is asking or wanting our opinion. So what do we do? We go to work, come home and watch TV and sleep until the next male dominated day. It's a living and we try to live it as best we can.

Anyway, everyone's entitled to their INFORMED beliefs.  That's what makes this world so rich and mulit-facted: people don't all think the same thoughts and do the same things.

Do's;&Dont's


when invited to a saudi's home;

try not to poke your eyes everywhere, just follow him and wait for his permission before entering the door, and same till you reach the room he takes you to. usually you go through a couple of doors till you get to the room.

in the norm, saudi's bring arabian coffee along with dates (not girlfriends on a date, "click here" to find out what dates are) you wait till he pours the coffee and have it with a couple of dates, but you can skip on the dates if you don't like them, but at least have one, the coffee keeps rolling in untill you say no more, so unless your lovin it, you should sign the no more sign after your third or fifth "finjan" (arabian coffee cup) .

the no more coffee sign;

there are many ways on how to do this, its a traditional thingy and it differs based on famlies from different tribal backgrounds and what part of Saudi they come from, here are a few ways to do it, jus tchoos the one your more comfortable with, cuz it aint esentiall for you to get the correct one each time, your an exapt

1- hold the finjan under your palm using your thumb and pinky and shake your hand left right a couple of times in a swift manner, keep your three middle fingers curved with your pinky as if forming a claw "mewo" , saying "bass" (slang enough)

2- put the finjan down and if he tries to take it to fill more, quickly "and carefuly" put your hand above the finjan, hand should be spread stright like a plate, also say bass.

3- (recommended) use the first method but keep your three middle fingers pointing stright and then put the finjan in the tray.

then the tee, have a couple and you can just say thats enough, no need to use the cup shaking thingy

I just wanted to gt back to the original topic, any similar querries?

Patriarchy is nothing new to the planet earth. Its ben there since Adam stepped on its soil and blamed Eve for making him eat the Apple. It will be there for centuries to come. men will always be men, even in sheeps clothing, tll Thy Kingdom Come. Thats a fact no ne can deny. Mabe not be palatable, but is still sad but true.

Now, ok, if I made a friend and she invited me to her home.  But she was married, will her husband stay away till I've left?  Are there separate lounges or rooms in which the men and women visit should they have friends over. 

Also, do I have to wear the full burkha in public - i.e. including the piece of cloth that covers the face entirely - or can I just wear the dress part (sorry, forgot the name) with a head scarf?  I don't mind the head scarf.  Wearing the full cover would take a while to get used to!  Since in summer we run around with little shorts and strap tops here in south Africa.

Most homes in KSA, apart from those insode western style compounds, have two Halls with separate entrances, one for he males and one for the females. Usually, the husband will not participate in the conversation when you visit a friend. Again it depends on the culture, education and outlook of the family concerned. In my 30 years in KSA I have very good relationships with many Saudi ladies, together with their husbands, who are friends of my wife. Some even do not wear the veil or Abhaya (cloak) in my presence.

The general rule is that all women past puberty must cover their hair and also wear the Abhaya (cloak) in pubkoic places. face covering is NOT mandatory. Its usually done by very strict Saudi females a s apart of their culture and NOT religion. The Islamic dress code for women in KSA is to cover all that part of their body except the face and hands. For men is that part of the body betwen the navel and the knees. Pretty simple to understand.

If you greeted your friend's husband - obviously this is now a new friend, not someone you've known for 30 years - would you wait to be greeted or can you just go right ahead and say hello?  These sound like weird questions, but it's the small stuff that matters.  If you get those bits right, then the rest should come too.  It also shows effort and that I'm not just storming in and expecting to do things my way.  I think anyway.  *toot toot*

Usually, the norm is to wait for the men to make the first move in greeting. If they come forward and say "Hello" or "Salaams" and stretch out their hand then you reciptrocate. If they dont you simply stay quiet and cool. You never stretch out your hand first.

No problems with the questions. I was also new here, once, 30 yewwars ago and I had no Internet to seek answers to all my questions then. You are lucky you have US. Smile! Shoot anything you want and you shall be given.

I am VERY lucky INDEED!!!  I must say I'm sooooo excited about the possibility of coming to live there.  I have lived in Namibia for 12 years, in South Africa for 12, and in the UK for 1 and the UK was by FAR the worst!  (no offense to any Brits!  I like the people, just not the weather!)  And Namibia and SA are amazing.  I love the diversity and multi-culturism.  And the warmth of the people.  But I need a change, so I'm hoping the right job will come up and that I will fit in properly. 

SO what does your wife feel about the culture and social aspect of KSA?  Is she on this blog too?  Maybe you should get her on as well  - that'd be very interesting!

My wife has been involved in teaching little kids for almost 40 years and runs her own International English School in Riyadh and manages the KG section of 300 kids. The Grades and Upper School have arounbd 500. TGhey are expandinbg next school year to a total of 1,000, hopefully. She is great with kids and has made some wonderful friends amongst the Saudi Ladies here. The school s owned by one of her Saudi Lady friends who has given my wife complete control to run it the way she pleases. Its not a profit based school. It was built by the Saudi lady in 1999 in memory of her recently graduated son who died in a car crash on the Riyadh-Makkah Highway and all profits are diverted to deserving charities across the globe. My wife enjoys her work and also her conribution towards thgis very charitable cause.

Being born Muslims from our native homeland in South Asia (Sri Lanka) it is not so difficult for us to adjust here even though we too, do feel the presuure of Arab culture, harshness of tongues, attitudes etc. We have been raised by the grand old Brits during the last vestiges of the Colonial era and are, I would say, more modern, simple, and practical Muslims. My wife is also a qualified Piano Teacher and teaches music at her School. She has a Blog of her own about the school and family but is not on this forum. Right now the whole fam are enjoying their summer vacation in sunny Sri lanka while I am dryying up here in the 55 C noonday sun since I have a project on my hands I cannot leave behind until Dec 31.

Three decades is a long long time, and almost half my life, and we have adjusted very well here with many friends from all nationalities and countries. The best thing about living and working here is meeting new people from all walks of life of differing color, culture, backgrounds, religions, etc etc.

Initially, we spent 6 years in the Eastern region town of AlKhobar and then moved to Riyadh in 1985. In between I spent 2 years in Muscat, Sultanate of Oman in 1990/91 and another two years in my home state in 1991/2 on a transfer from my company then (Citibank).

Thats the way the wind blows in the desert sands of Arabia.

your history is quite enjoyabl musicman

Cath..where did you stay in Nam?

Nam is the best place ever..better than SA.

So did u hear anything from the employers? Did u get the job?

Good luck and Im excited with u.

Tata

Salman,

We have to enjoy what we have in our hands. Otherwise theres no purpose in life.

As salaamu alaikum Bro Salman and the rest,
And Hi  to the rest,

I came here from the Istanbul side of the forum to hear some about saudi arabia. Istanbul side of forum is not much active like here. As many people are westerns here( at least I thought so), I thought there would be many controversial issues about saudi arabia. And I appreciate your perfect answers. Because they mostly related to practices of Islam. And you replied very nice and I did read all the pages until now.

Just I have a question, Could you tell us the logic of women driving ban? Why it is prohibited? I just want to learn.

Juan,
I think all men are agree about women' driving:)
It is humor that you said above.

Inshallah, I will visit Saudi arabia some day.

This was posted to my FB p[age today. Very interedsting read, indeed:-

http://knowledge.insead.edu/women-gende … otypes.cfm

I believe the restriction of women driving in KSA has been in place purely on a circumstantial level since the basic infastructure of road safety, traffic police, male drivers etc did not cater to the convenience of women driving on the roads here since they are all covered up and will not reveal theiur faces or identity to anyone except their Mahrams.

It may change soon, anyways.

Hey Boskind.  I stayed in Oshakati for 5 years during the border war.  From 1986 to 1990.  And then we moved to Grootfontein for a further 5 years.  I loved living there.  The absolute freedom!  I had the most idillic childhood: bikes, dogs, veld as far as the eye can see, game reserve just down the road, WONDERFUL!  My father was murdered and so my mom wanted to move back to SA to be with her family.  So that's what we did.  I love SA.  I'm very patriotic, but Nam has a very special place in my heart.  I went back there on a 3 week holiday about 2 years ago.  It was wonderful and terrible.  Brought back many happy and some sad memories.  Felt torn to come back to SA.  Like I say - it is my heaven.  When did you go there?

Hey Musicman.  Thanks for the link.  I read the article.  Extremely interesting!  I think Sourire should read that. 

Hey guys, Soirire made some interesing points and I thought I'd open the discussion up.  How do the rest of you feel?  To be fair I have posted her response to me first and then my own response.  I think an open debate would be interesting.  It's always good to be challenged and rethink one's position in the world.  Anyway:

Soirire:

Just a line to reply to you comments on what I was saying about the treatment of women.  Unfortunately, I am running today with a lot of things to do so I'll just make a few points - with respect!

I think the United States of America is the most prosperous country in the world and not the Middle East.  I don't think the West is experiencing the decline of civilization.

As I mentioned, I have women friends from a number of countries including the Middle East and they tell me what goes on.  They have their personal stories also. 

I've just been through the somewhat revolution in Tehran as I have friends here in Canada whose families are still there.  I am horrified by what has and is still happening.  I'm not going into details as possibly you might have followed events also.

There are the wives who are not allowed to decide on their children's education; not allowed to go out unescorted; must obey their husbands in everything; must hide their hair (and bodies) in case the men get "turned on".  Personally, I think the men should learn to control their impulses as our men have learnt to.

There's a lot to discuss and today is one of those days when there's not enough hours to get everything done in.  However, I did want to make the above points.

With regards,

sourire

Catherine

Dear Soirire

What follows is a very frank account of my thoughts and the general perception of people I have encountered, the South African media and my own research on the topic.  Take me from whence I come.

Is the USA really the most prosperous nation in the world?  Well, I don't happen to think so personally.  It obviously depends on which criteria you're using to rate prosperity.  If you're talking money, well the USA is in more debt than it's been in since the late 1940s.  Prosperous?  People are getting laid off left right and centre.  The country is in 11 trillion dollars worth of debt.

There seems to be a deep sense of moral ambiguity in American cultures which is clearly and embarrasingly displayed in the American media for the world to see.  The American government has selfishly done what it pleases, and the rest of the world has to suffer the consequences.  I refer to the Iraqi war, the invasion of Afganistan (weapons of mass distruction???  Most of the world thinks America was the only country with a weapon of mass distruction: George W Bush -  whom the people of the USA voted in not once, but TWICE!!!), the Palestinian conflict.  All of these are political wars fought by a handful of people in government looking after the interests of - again - a handful of people in the USA.  Those wars do not benefit neither the people of America nor the rest of the world.  The loss is exponential and futile.

I also refer to the amount of garbage the average American produces per day: 4.39 pounds.  That is on average 56 tonnes of trash a year.  Per person!  This is unspeakable.  There is a garbage swurl in the Pacific ocean that is over 90 feet deep in some places, and is bigger than the state of Texas.  General polution and complete throw-away culture existing in the USA is an abomination.  And we will all have to pay for that very soon.  We already are. 

I could go on and on and on.  Is all this really prosperity?  If you're talking about human rights, yes, America is very big on rights.  But South Africa's constitution is one of the most progressive in the world and enjoys a high level of acclaim.  We are equally, if not more aware of human rights here.  Racism in all its forms still exists in the American culture.  The USA is still not free of racism 40-odd years after the civil rights movement.  South Africans have the priviledge of fantastic leadership, and have had 15 years of substantial integration in South Africa where racism is hardly a concern any longer.  In the 12 years I have lived in SA I have never come across racism.  Sounds crazy but it's true!

It would seem that stripped of grand moral narratives, Americans are left with mere cost-benefit analyses of their ethical options or with only a personal sense of right and wrong, a privatized moral order.  And the selfish way in which America seems to portray itself - or at least portray itself - demonstrates to the rest of the world that money is the most important thing.  The personal sense of right and wrong - the privatized moral order seems not to exist, as long as the money's rolling in. 

Moral diversity cannot, and should not, be suppressed. Multiplicity of moral structures demands that we need to think about morality as local, contingent, and revisable, a product of argument and compromise, not as a self-evident truth or the self-interest of the powerful.  Nevertheless, at some point we must consider the unenviable position of the USA of having to take responsibility for a great deal of disfunction in the western world.

The sad thing about America is that Americans themselves are actually nice people.  As a rule.  My mom's best friends are American missionaries.  I have grown up with them and their children.  People who go to America say they are nice people.  But a great deal of nations have that reputation.  In fact, there are very few who are known to be rude.  But it is not enough to be 'nice'. 

What is prosperity then?  Is it a financial one?  A moral one?  A societal one?  A political one.  Fortunately Obama seems to be putting band-aids on the many wounds America has inflicted on the rest of the world, and because of that Americans are rising in popularity - certainly in South Africa, because of Obama.  But I must be honest and say that Americans have not particularly enjoyed the respect of South Africans for quite some time.  Many find them arrogant, loud, obnoqious know-it-alls.  And it seems that they think that the rest of the world should aspire to be just like them.  If anything, I try my best not to be any of those things.  I am not trying to offend you, I am simply stating a differing opinion about what you seem to think is the most prosperous nation in the world...


The point I'm trying to make is that each country enjoys a percentage of prosperity is various discourses.  Do yourself a favour and read the article which is a link on musicman's comments.  It is a great article based on a study done by a woman in the Middle East.  Read it.  It's a great eye-opener.

Cultures are different, and we need to be tolerant of them.  We simply cannot dismiss one simply because it clashes with our own.  We need to find value in what each culture and country can offer to the world.  Obviously I can't change your opinion - which you are welcome to by the way.  I just want you to try and consider what I have said and try and see the USA through the eyes of the rest of the world.  We took our rose-tinted lenses off a long time ago.

Good evening everyone!

hmmm, alot of debate here... lets start with neochemist's question shall we? I bet every one wants to talk about that.

To begin with, let's be clear that Driving is "not" prohibited by Islam. women in the times of Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) used to ride camels and even horses, on the other hand in my personal view, this ban is even controversial to the tradition and culture of Arabs before getting into the age of black gold, things were simple and the women  had their part to play in a family which was more than feed the kids and please the hubby, and it differed based on what type of family they were, farmers, or traders of sheep, camels and even horses. women had to share the duties of taking care of the chores out side as much as inside the house, responsibilities were shared, families were not using maids or driver to do their work like today, last thing anyone wanted to worry about is whether  a woman car ride a horse or not.

in the clash of tradition & culture and the modern world after the discovery of oil, things started working out differently, "aliens" from other countries started pouring in, unlike the western and eastern regions which were well exposed to the outside world, the capital Riyadh had no long history of having so many outsiders, men took the duty of dealing with the outside world and suddenly the women had to stay on the inside, and so it happened. even today if you go to the country side, you see women driving along the road and only cover their face when another car passes by.

So why is it banned? It aint tradition, it aint religion, it's them half witted morons  (with all due respect) out there who think that women shouldn't drive for the heck of it (they need a wee wittle hammer to convince them), others say its not safe for them to drive because of the hoodlums that lurk around streets driving their cars lookin for trouble (that I agree with somehow since it's a safety concern).  ofcourse the issues such as traffic problems and schooling for female drivers and other facilities are minor issues they haven't bothered tackling yet cuz it's “when it happens it happens” kind of system when it comes to planning.

By the way, un-officially there are many females that roam the roads of Riyadh with there dark tinted cars, usually princesses or daughters of rich and influential figures.. just thought I'd mention that

That's a mouthful, anything else you wana shoot?

Catherine & soirire,

Let's calm down. I'll be back to comment.

Every nation has its own laws and ways of life that are acceptable and prohibited. For instance if someone awith a long beard and short thob applies for a US visa they could easily reject him without giving him any reasons even if he not a terrorist. At the same time they also claim that they uphold fundamental human rights? Doesnt go down very well with me similar to the fact that not allowing women to drive doesnt go down well with many others.

Each nation has its own skeletons in its cupboard.

you mean If I aplly I won't get a visa to the US?

*snif snif*