Possible Future Expat

fdajani wrote:

Thanks for the info.  I called my credit card company on which I reserved the rental car and they assured me that my international rental car is covered under their policy for liability insurance. I'm taking with me a copy of their benefits package which shows this converge, in fact the credit card company encourages waiving this coverage.

I tried the same thing, only with supplemental insurance via one of the travel websites (expedia, I think). Even though I had a print out showing coverage, they would not rent me a car unless I agreed to pay for the "required" insurance (I think it was $18/day). They told me it was Panamanian law. Hope you have better luck than I did.

Well, I can only try and we'll see how it goes!!

So, we are back from our 3 week tour of Panama, it was very enjoyable and educational, but this is not where we would choose to live.

We landed in Panama City and stayed for one night at Magnolia Inn in the heart of Casco Viejo, with my wife and two children, we got out of the taxi right in front of a locked steel bar gate, at the beginning we had doubts that this was the hotel, but the taxi driver pointed to the sign with the name of the hotel on it. My wife looked at me as to say "what kind of hotel are you putting up in", but I wouldn't let her say a word and I just rambled on saying "this place was recommended by the travel book, don't be fooled by the looks, let's go in and see what it is like". We rang the bell and they buzzed open the gate for us. We dragged the four luggage up the two or tree steps and into the vestibule past the  steel gate, the gate closed locked behind us, my wife looked at me, I looked around me for an elevator that was not there, then faced the  long steep stairs that make a turn to I don't know where, I grabbed the big luggage and said wait here and I'll be back for the rest, this was my first day workout! The owner kindly sent a worker to help us with the rest of the luggage, because there was another similar flight of stairs to our room. Reminding the family that we are in a historic part of a developing country kept everyone understanding and peaceful.  The next day we toured Casco Viejo and really enjoyed it.

At the end of the day we flew off to Bocas del Toro, I'd classify it as a back packer's city, not so clean with poor infrastructure.  We spent two days discovering the typical touristic stuff such as the pretty island and beach, snorkling there is forgettable as we snorkled twice and all we could see is brown reef with only a few colorful fish, it doesn't come close to what one could find in other Careabean areas such as St Thomas and The Bahamas..., One day we visited the Naso indigenous tribe by a motorized tree dugout canoe up the river, hiked up to the village to see how they go about their daily lives, it was quite fascinating, and probably the highlight of our entire trip. As we returned to the river to catch our ride back, our canoe was gone along with the life vests, but there was two young guys cutting down bamboo trees and assembling a raft (this is how they come down the river to the city. I turned out that this was to be the raft that we would take us back, all four of us along with a raft "driver" we'd go through river turns and rapids without life vest, it was awesome, our peak trip excitement.

On another day we took a tour of an indigenous  Cacao farm, and had another fantastic journey.

Took the bus from Almerante to David where we rented 4x4 that came in totally handy, spent an hour trying to avoid the extra "optional but mandatory" insurance, but they won't rent us the car  without it, so we paid and off to Boquete. Not that much to do there, but the mountains are pretty, the shopping areas in town is nothing to speak off, but the central park area is nice and when the artists arrive it become nice and lively. We stayed in one of the round houses of hotel Isla Verde, a jaw dropping unexpected contemporary beautiful design, the typical German efficiency and interior design. The idea of the high end gated communities to us was uncomfortable and I felt insulted for the locals, if I would come to live in another country I would go there to be with its people, we could not digest the idea of living in an artificial paradise in an isolated bubble as supremacists above the locals!! While I do understand the need for security for an elderly or a single person, to us this was an unexpected and unpleasant sight. We spent 3 days here.

Drove to El Valle de Anton on Sunday. Stopped by Los Lajas to check out the beach, nice but it seamed deserted with old run down covered beach areas.  El Valle was nice, it had a more down to earth and pleasant atmosphere with pretty volcanic rocks and beautiful nature, shopping is along the main street. We put on our rain coats and went for a hike through the canopy in the rain to see the waterfall and walk in the small river, this was really nice, another highlight.

Drove to Panama City for the conference, certainly all presenters in the conference are linked in business in one way or another and like any of us each is there to sell something, which is quite fine, that's what we went there for. Real estate was a big topic, and so was other investment opportunities, all of which was actually great to get exposed to, it opened our eyes to new opportunities that we never hear of in the US. Most people attending the conference were elderly looking for a place to retire. In general, I think the 2.5 day conference was worth the $1,000 we paid for the two of us.

We spent a few more days in Panama City to look around and to visit the touristy places, the Canal areas and locks, Balboa, Gamboa rain forest, the fish market, Panama Viejo, Casco Viejo, and the many hours getting lost on the road. Panama City, hard to describe, or maybe not, chaos. My favorite are the street signs and particularly the exit signs on the corredors, the signs are after and inside of the exit, what's up with that!

Then we spent a couple of days in Playa Coronado, interesting, and the beach is nice, real estate is ridiculously expensive for the area, I wouldn't mind paying that sort of money if I was in Miami Beach, but in Panama, I think not. There are much nicer places with great communities and excellent infrastructure where one can buy real estate for less, try Paris or beautiful Spain on the mediterranean sea.

We bought grapes from Rey's while we were in Coronado, the best, way to go Panama we thought, as we finished, I looked at the bag: "PRODUCT OF CALIFORNIA", are you kidding me!  and expensive!  the local vegetable shops has local fruits and vegies but rarely looks good, I know no a/c and no coolers and not modified genetically does not help, but come on, I came from a developing country and the fruits and vegies are beautiful and to die for.

I got stopped for speeding (I didn't see the speed sign), the policeman told " pay, not ticket",  I slipped him a few dollars and he gave me a big smile and wished me a pleasant journey.

What's up with all of that security, I've never seen anything like this in my life, and I've traveled most of the EU and parts of the old Soviet areas, the middle east, north africa, Japan, and traversed the US.  I don't remember seeing barbed wire on residential fences, nore did I see 3 meter fences, or gated towns, or guards at every bank door and at many teller machines. We went to visit someone in a building in PC on the 8th floor, as we entered the building past the security guards we go to the security desk to get a pass to activate the elevator, they check your ID and take your picture including our children, they give each one of us a bar coded pass that allows us to enter the elevator lobby, then you go to a monitor and you input the code that is on the pass which selects the elevator (out of 4) that is to take us to only that floor.  Madness!!  When  we reached our panamanian acquaintance I asked why all of this security, has Panama experiences major crimes or robberies that got things to this point? He said "no", but could not explain what's behind all of this.   

We went to a bank to do a quick financial transaction and the guard watched our every move while sitting in the lobby waiting to be serviced.  Yeah, I felt that no crime will have a chance, but come on!

Anyhow, overall the people are friendly and very calm, Panama has much natural beauty and has the mountains and beaches within a relatively short drive. To live well, the cost of living is relatively high, but one could live like the locals for a bit cheaper. Now, if someone is coming from one of the expensive US areas, then sure Panama might seem as a bargain, but come from Virginia, and it will make Virginia look really good. We loved the weather most of the time including the rain. There doesn't seem to be any architectural city regulations to help define the infrastructure of a place such as how it looks, what utilities and amenities must it have, sidewalks... Schooling for children is limited to private schools which are expensive to extremely expensive, in fact it's quite a lucrative booming business in Panama now. While real estate took a hit in the last few years, it is now mostly stable but is still pricey. There is potential for good investment if someone has the connections to get a project started.  Skilled labor is hard to find and it shows well in the construction arena. Surely living in Panama still have its advantages, slower pace, lower or no US tax if you live there  11 months of the year or more on the first $97,000, if you don't travel much then you could do away with a car, lower cost health care, and an easy flight from the US.  Everything is relative.

I hope I didn't bore anyone 

So, what's the deal with the perros everywhere there?!!

Fayez

Thanks for the informative article.  If we didn't already have reservations to go to Panama next month, I would definitely stay away!  The gated properties are common throughout Latin America, I think.  We noticed them in Costa Rica a number of years ago; also in Mexico a long time ago.

Well, enjoy your trip to Panama.  Make sure to visit the fish market, I hear it is quite a scene (watch out for the smell, it's fish!), we missed it twice as we went there too late in the day and just enjoyed grilled whole fish with seviche downstairs for $9 per dish plus drinks and seviche, comes to about $12 each.  Avoid trying to drive in Panama City, you'll just end up going around in circles and get yourself frustrated, take taxis, and avoid rush hours, you'd just sit in traffic for an hour trying to make a 10 minute drive, and taxis will understandably ask for more money then because they are burning more gas, and not picking up more customers. We paid $10 for the four of us to go across town, then paid $15 to get back during rush hour.

I would recommend that you visit Panama at its best, in the winter or early spring.  Once you find a place or two that you like, come back during rainy season, September - October. 
I live in Boquete and we get torrential rains about 5 days a week and heavy rains the other 2 days.  It also rains a lot in Santiago.  I've only stopped there on trips to/from Panama City.  It's the second largest town in Panama but it seems smaller than David to me.  Coronado is drier butpricey beach town.  Kris is right about the gates.
She is also right about IL.  Their agenda is to sell.  Most expats will tell you to live in an area for at least 6 months before buying.  In Boquete it would probably be wiser to wait one year so you can see if you can tolerate the rainy season and the windy season. 
As Kris can attest to, we see visitors all the time.  They come for 2 days and think they know a place.  Plan to stay a week or two to get the feel. Then return for a few months.

You're Moving Where?

Just a comment, about those expensive grapes.  since I grow grapes, I thought I'd give you insight. Grape vines  need seasons to produce, they really need that rest period in the winter.  You might have a few grapes around the highest elevation around valcano Baru,  but so close to the equator, it still doesn't get cold enought to really grow healthy producing vines. Vine growing areas of the world , Europe, Australia, Chile, even northern and central Califorina have seasons where it gets cold enought for the leaves to fall off and allow rest. so importing grapes to Panama will be expensive. however, I'd look at the plus side, here you have a country, that has the capability to import things that they can't grow, or things they don't make. Availability some times is better than always having the lowest cost on everything.

Hugo

I'm sorry your trip to Panama wasn't what you hoped. But, better to know that Panama isn't a good fit before you make any comittments to live here or get more involved in the country.

But, I've been thinking, and had to respond to your post... all parts of Panama are not the same. I've never had a hotel experience like yours. I've always been helped with luggage and been treated well in every way in any Panama City hotel I've stayed at. I'm sorry your experience wasn't so good. And, I wouldn't want to live in Panama City either. It's very expensive, crowded, too much traffic, etc. It's great to visit but I couldn't deal with that on a daily basis, or afford it even if I wanted to.

Bocas is a funky tourist town. The area, the islands, the water, etc are gorgeous in my opinion. We experienced some of the most beautiful snorkeling I've ever seen! I'm sorry that wasn't your experience. But, I wouldn't want to live there either - too funky and too isolated.

No one rents a car here without the manditory insurance. This applies everywhere in Panama.

Boquete is nice with a large expat community. If you want that, you're good. We don't, and it's too cold, and too far from shopping, hospitals, and everything else a city has to offer. And there are the other factors you mentioned that go with a large influx of expats.

Security is a whole subject, and I am planning a blog post on it in the near future. To me, and to lots of people, at first it looked like this must be a crazy place - police everywhere, armed guards, gates, walls... what the heck? But after living here I see that it is more prevention than anything. You can park your car without worry because there will be a security guard in the parking lot. No one is going to plan a robbery at the bank because you can't get past the security and two armed guards at the door who will wand you and check your bags, etc. This place has a history with wars, death, and destruction, and many people alive today remember it well. The people here do NOT want any more of anything like that! Safety and security, and freedom from worry about safety and security are very important to them. My neighborhood has security gates and walls, the police cruise it regularly, and the neighbors are vigilant and watch everyone who enters. Nothing ever happens here. That's really nice.

Las Lajas and other beach areas are isolated and there are hardly any people there. if you like that, you'll be happy. The locals don't spend much time at the beach though, and haven't developed the areas at all. Development is mainly large beach houses and tourist destinations. 

You know what I think of expensive conferences! I don't think people have any business buying real estate or investing here until they have LIVED here for awhile. Conferences hardly give a person a realistic idea of life here. They charge a ton of money for information that could be found for free, and mislead people into thinking Panama is "paradise", and mislead people into buying overpriced property in overpriced gringo compounds. If you want to buy property, I think you have to live here, know the local people, and get plugged into the local channels of looking for property. And, even then you have to be very careful. 

Coronado? Nope. That is also not Panama. That's hype, high costs, sold as expat "paradise". nope, nope, nope

Do NOT buy produce from El Rey! It is not fresh, inexpensive, or local for the most part. I don't know where you went shopping for local produce but your experience is certainly different from ours. We buy ALL our produce from the local produce shacks that are found everywhere. Produce is brought in daily. It is not grown for shelf life or appearance though, and it will not keep like we are used to in the US. Grapes? there are no local grapes, or apples, or some other things that don't thrive here because of the climate. But, there are plenty of other good options for fruit. Did you try a local pineapple or papaya? They are amazing.

Cost of living is relatively high?? Again, I think you were looking in the wrong places. We are living on about 30% of what it cost us in central Florida. For us, living here is a huge savings! There is Panama City, there is Panama as presented to expats, and then there is the real Panama. I'm sorry you didn't get to see much of the real Panama.

Perros are "free range", and the Panamanian mentality is I wouldn't want someone to remove my huevos, so why would I do it to my dog? Dogs are treated more like livestock, not pets, and there are lots of strays because of the lack of spaying and neutering, unfortunately. But, they are effective security guards. If you walk down my street you will have 7-8 dogs barking their heads off! One good things some expats have done is educate the population on the advantages of spaying and neutering, and setting up inexpensive clinics to try and improve this situation.

Kris

It is so unfortunate that you came away from Panama with such a distorted opinion.  It seems that you came here with unrealistic expectations from the time your arrived in PC.  Your hotel (actually a hostel,) is in the oldest, most historic part of the country.  For someone as well travelled as you say, you should know that old buildings rarely have any improvements that would destroy its history.  If you expected modern, make reservations in the financial area near Via Argentina. 

Bars on the windows are preventative, guards in banks are preventative, and security before entering some buildings is preventative.  I feel much safer here (both personal and property) than I did in my hometown of Miami.  Our news is not filled with murders, robberies and car-jackings like on any US channel.  Also, there are many cultural differences about security that you would not see in such a short visit.

Driving in PC is not recommended but entirely doable.  They are building a new subway system so currently many roads are closed and most roads in the city are one-way.  Without a good GPS, you will get lost (and beeped and yelled at).  Taxis are cheap and readily available so most people use them.  My husband and I drove for several days in the city with relatively no problems but we drive almost everywhere in the world.  Compared to Istanbul or Rome, PC is a cakewalk.

Your problems with rental cars are common around the world.  Most credit cards do NOT extend their coverage to Panama.  That is why you did not have coverage on your card and had to buy extended coverage. 

Any travel guide explains that Bocas del Toro is a laid-back beach town.  Although it is on the Caribbean, no one expects great scuba or snorkeling.  But had you read further, you would have chosen the Pacific side for your watersports.  However, I agree with your opinion of Bocas and have only been once. 

El Valle is an upscale Panamanian weekend retreat.  It is easy to vacation there for a few days.  The same is true with Coronado.  Coronado is very expensive and filled with fast food restaurants and expats.  Neither of these areas held much appeal to me either for various reasons but they are popular with others.

Your observation of Boquete is extremely inaccurate.  Some expats choose to live in a gated community but most do not. I don't.  As for nothing to do, you could not be more wrong.  We are busy all the time.   The food is out of the fields fresh and inexpensive.  We avoid imported foods and choose a $1 pineapple, $2 papaya from the mercado or oranges from the neighbors. 

We see the IL people in Boquete all the time with their herd of people trying to sell them one thing or another.  They paint an illogical picture to peddle their wares.  Usually it's "fear the US and buy something from us". Many companies are doing this so it must work.  Take their "advice" with a grain of salt and be very, very wary of their "investment opportunities". 

I absolutely love living in Boquete.  The air is clean, the water is pure and the food is healthy.  We have one of the most active expat groups in the country.  Friends of the Library, Amigoes de Animales, Bid4Boquete, people who work with the elderly, poor and handicapped, our theater, groups for every interest and clubs for every activity.  Our newest play is in Spanish, not what you would call a bunch of "supremacists" living in an isolated bubble. Most of us interact with Panamanians in Spanish, even if we are just learning.

Expat living is not for everyone.  It is less likely that a person who pays $1000 to advise them about relocating, will be happy.  Most people who live here have travelled independently and extensively around the world.  We are not tour group people. 

I hate to think that people reading your post will believe your observations based on a three week visit with only a few days in each place.  We knew that Boquete was perfect for us in just a few days.  But we continued to visit, each time longer and longer until we were certain.  We are now in the process of buying a house here, again, not in a gated community. 

Good luck in your future searches.

BTW - the animal population in some areas is critically out of control.  Several regions, including Boquete, have taken the initiative to begin spay and neuter clinics.  It has made a huge difference in our area and is spreading across the country.

Thanks Kris & Tombseekers,
I've only one trip to Panama, and you both have clarified some items, and reenforced others. 2 nd trip in 9 weeks, 3 rd trip already planned in 15 months.  we might run into either of you next trip.

. I've noticed a lot of people from the states complaining about the driving in P.C. While we were last down there in 2011, and maybe the subway work hadn't  disrupted the traffic as it is now, but, the inland bridge was closed, so everyone was using the "Bridge of the Americas" . But still, before I drive in a new city I really study a map, sometimes even getting one before flying to the country.

Being prepared and knowing approximately where the roads go should be a lesson for everyone. Realizing that you need to understand how the locals drive, and what speed they do it, then match that, don't try and impose American speed, rules, expectations on their customs, roads. Weather it being 120 -130 on the German Autobahns (that was fun, or downtown Athens, ( one must be brave) or the highways in Greece, where it is legal to pass some one when a car is coming from the other direction, as long as you signal your intentions (one must be really brave).  To Panama,  where sometimes it's only 25 or 30 mph, which is fine, remember it's their country, and also, people sometimes use the roads for walking.

Thanks again for the info., you really reenforced a lot from our first trip.

Hugo