Difficult situation for elderly woman

cdw057 wrote:

With borders being closed and Corona curfews in place, we have an elderly woman (82), very close by (good brain, bud bad health), she has support of our village (two younger women visit her twice per day (meal, insuline, cleaning, etc). Very good, but the elderly woman can not go for example to the toilet herself and from time to time when being visited by the women she is in quite a state. It was planned for her to go to an elderly home (but no new admittances during these times), one of the considerations is to have her moved to Germany (but no admittances there either (her 2 daughters are also caught up in a way (anyhow, going to Germany (even if you are German by birth but a Hungarian resident is not too easy).

Hospital is also not too easy, I think under circumstances she is very well taken care off but without 24 hour supervision not very acceptable (suggestions will be welcome, but honestly I have little hope)

The local government is supposed to sort these things out.  My mother in law probably has early dementia and is phoned regularly by the local support people.  She's able to care for her own basic needs though.

The only thing I know about hereabouts are religious organisations and their NGOs (Non-Governmental Organisations) - like Caritas.

I don't think there's a problem driving to Germany - but needs quarantine on arrival.  If that's where the daughters are maybe they could arrange for her to be collected.   But really it sounds like she needs to be in a care home wherever it is.

BTW, Mrs Fluffy said because of the COVID19 issue, said the HU government pushed a lot of sick people out of the hospital back on to their families which has working out very badly as they aren't able to cope.   There have been cases here - apparently - where ill people have been dumped back at home and died shortly thereafter.

cdw057 wrote:

the elderly woman can not go for example to the toilet herself

There are bed pans and adult diapers for such cases. For between visits by the village caretakers. Yes, one must bite the humiliation bullet (very hard for elderly, so may need to be gently explained to her). Hope this little bit helps.

fluffy2560 wrote:

The local government is supposed to sort these things out.

Local governments have limits. They supply some support, but never did, and never will, be able to supply full support for all circumstances. Especially during a pandemic. And especially after the national government cut a lot of local government funding years ago....

fluffy2560 wrote:

BTW, Mrs Fluffy said because of the COVID19 issue, said the HU government pushed a lot of sick people out of the hospital back on to their families which has working out very badly as they aren't able to cope.   There have been cases here - apparently - where ill people have been dumped back at home and died shortly thereafter.

And to nursing homes. And then blamed others when this action caused problems (in English and disturbing):

https://hungarianspectrum.org/2020/04/1 … -pandemic/

That is a sad situation.
Our 89 year old neighbor died about 2 weeks ago.
She had her daughter taking care of her for over 20 years but as she aged it got harder for her girl.
This older women was heavy 90 kilos and her daughter couldn't lift her alone.
She used the WC by herslef with her daughter helping her into the room.
What killed her was she fell off the WC and broke a bone in her back.
Went into hospital and was dead in about 4 days.
Her daughter had plans on moving her to a care home after her back healed.
It is a bit dangerous to live alone when you are that weak.
My MIL was 81 and fell in her garden and was laying there for hours once as she couldn't get up. Was too stubborn to give up her home and garden and move into a care home.
We used to have to quit our good jobs and fly from Vegas to Erd for 6 months to help "mama-sit her.
Sort of pissed me off after the 3rd or 4 th time. I had to move and be treated like her little servant instead of having my  life in Vegas. Yes, I was resentful. My mother just moved away to die and never told us she was dying. She was only 67 too. Her way of thinking was what can anyone do and why drag them down with you.
Just mentioning that because elderly who are so stubborn make other people suffer and drag them down too sometimes all in the name of not giving up their own freedom.
Yes, she can try to use a bed pan or a diaper, someone should check on her at least a few times a day until this lockdown thing is over with and she can go into a care home.
Don't be surprised if they find her gone one day.
My FIL had a stroke alone when my MIL happened to be in the hospital one time. My SIL checked in on him but it was too late to get any help.
Not fun getting older I suppose.
Have to make your peace with it and know anyday could be it.
My MIL had a weirdo habit that drove me half insane. She would order some lunch meat for herself when we shopped for her but only wanted about 4 slices of meat at a time.
I asked my husband what's up with that because I am sick of shopping every 5 mins for her.
He said she told him she might die and she didn't want to waste the left over meat?
Crazy, God save me from doing that to anyone.

A bit of update on the situation although I am struggling if the update is actually good or bad, since the last post I learnt that the lady was visited and taken care off 3 x per day (service of city hall (village really 600 people), and I was and am impressed. The lady in question I know can be quite demanding (being grateful however is one of the things you really have to be in such a situation).
She is German and has German health insurance (which really helps in a way), even if being a Hungarian resident, I suspect that there was a bit of a conspiracy (acitive involvement of the mayor I think) to have her shipped off to Germany (initially I think she is very happy when reality kicks in (being in a care home or hospital is no pleasure in any country nowadays I would think). Being in your own house and environment has pluses (especially if there is 3x per day visit (on top of some friendly neighbours (who in my view really should not have done that considering the situation).

In a way I feel sad, very special person, outgoing, friendly, but complaining is in the genes. Lets see what happens, I would not be surprised if the conclusion of grass is not always greener at the other side is quickly reached.
Special arrangements to go to Germany, going back might even be more difficullt.
No Corona case, but clearly linked, I hope that the other elderly residents will do fine (me and my wife are not too old I say to myself), some of them adhering properly, others not.

What amazes me is that even if very good and comprehensive services (for 70+) are offered (medical care, meals, cleaning) for a price of HUF 800 per day it is refused because of the need of feeling independent. Of course loneliness can be a bit topic and some of the elderlies do not have internet, but protecting yourself and others during (what I feel an additional 15 months) is also not too bad,

(Re a prior post, better to go out once per 6 weeks rather then 2x per week, we are all humans subject to infection).
Good that in most place electricity and water still work (also internet).
Still I feel very much with those who are alone, not married, have lost their job, have health issue, no money, extremely difficult times and honestly I do not know what to do in such a situation.
I have the luxury to be able to comply.

I'ts no joy ride to get old.
This lady probably should go back to Germany when she can do so,
Not sure if she speaks Hungarian or not but it might be more comfy for her to go home.
I seem a bit tough but this does bother me, seen too many young people die off with dignity and a few never even told us how really ill they were, just didn't see any need to upset people when there is not much one can do.
Our 89 year old neighbor got fussy with her daughter too and her girl gave up 20 years of her life to care for her mom. Her brother wouldn't help out.
My MIL was a bit selfish like that as well. She meant well but forgot other people need to live too.
It was getting to be all about her all the time.
My BIL and SIL lived a short 2 blocks away from my MIL and we had to move to Hungary to help her out?
WTH?
My BIL didn't want to help out and my SIL used to fight all the time with her mom even though her mom was paying her for her time.
It was a nightmare for me to live with my grumpy old MIL who never really liked the fact that I was American and not Hungarian.
Actually, my poor husband to be in the middle of 2 women who didn't see eye to eye.Poor thing would spend time with her till afternoon time then take me out to do something fun. It wasn't much fun around the old homestead that's for sure.
We no longer even speak to my in-laws, they dropped the ball and kicked it down the street.
I now really respect the way my mother went out, like the song goes, "She did it her way",
She had breast cancer which came back after 12 years in full force.
She knew it was hopeless so she put on a show for us 6 kids.
She made a pact with my step-dad to say nothing to us except she was sick of yardwork and housework so she sold her home.
She paid off every single credit card and bill before she passed,Not her style to leave things unpaid or undone.
She lived off some of her home profit for about one year and the rest she gave to her husband to live on and the remainder she put into a cashiers check in the name of all 6 of us children to share equally.
She gave away all her furniture to friends or chairties and gave a few personal items to each of us children and said it was time for her to enjoy life.
She moved over 500 miles away as she knew we all were busy working and wouldn't bother her or see what was going on with her.
I called her 3 or 4 times per week and she said she was always good, everything was fine.
Then she slipped into a coma and my crazy step-dad did his part by not calling for help for 3 days. We all went to see her in hospital before she passed, at least we had that much. I hate it when people drag out their misery and drag everyone with them.
My mom was part native American and I like to think she chose to handle her death with bravery and in her own way.
I wonder why your neighbor is still in Hungary and her children in Germany if she is not willing to let go and is trying to hang on so hard to life.  I've already told my husband if I am seriously ill, I'd just like to be taken outdoors and left looking at the sunset and some body of water. Dying in a stuffy hospital bed sounds more like hell then heaven to me.
I also feel terrible for people who lost jobs and have over extended themselves.It is not a great time right now to have small children who might be in fear, no one knows what to say to them to make them feel secure as no one knows where all this is going to lead.

A good (and very personal) post from Marilyn, its amazing how people can have similar experiences. The same for Dutch, in the Netherlands it is more easy in a way, active support for leaving this world is much more accepted (sometimes borderline and court-cases, but in general the good intention of people supporting is accepted by courts)
Life can be difficult in the last year(s) and the mind can change quite a bit (largely driven by fear of death), I do not know how I will react (I think with me it will be easy and quick (just stopping to take my medicines (heart-attack is I think a preferred way for many)). Going slowly and making life difficult for loved or friendly ones is not preferred by me.
I am very quiet and I do not recall any shouting by me, but things can change if you are in extreme agony (can be accepted and dealt with for a few months, but destroying life of carers for years is not to be accepted (carers mean good and do good, thank you and friendly is going a long way)).

I have known (quite a few) people who accept and I have (very) good memories, personality plays a big role in the last few years, however if personality is lost it is very different.
I hope I can be as those who accept and can be thankful.

As a PS, the support of locals and expats is absolutely amazing (in the Corona situation but also before), personally I hope I can be grateful when my time comes, we try to do things but probably not enough (it never is and where to find the balance between own lives and others life is difficult).

A good post from Fluffy2560, I do not know what will happen, my main message remains grass is not more green at the other side of the river. Indeed possible to re-domicile as it seems (I personally was quite amazed (surprised), but being in elderly homes (or hospitals) especially in these times is not a pleasure I think.
I personally think that she wants to come back within 6 weeks (a few weeks in quarantaine and a few weeks in a German elderly home). These are VERY difficult times and life is not as it used to be (apart from the fact that we all get older and loose certain abilities and start to be less clever or loose memories).
BTW same applies for me (in the past I was very reactive, clever (I tend to think), life becomes more difficult if getting a bit older and not easy to accept for all. (also not for me but that is besides the topic).

On hospitals, some people have indeed "normal" problems and you can notice the difference in acceptance or treatments. The mother of our gardener (with whom we have a very good relationship with) has been "shipped" out to a hospital more then 100 km away (having said that visiting is not allowed anyhow). Still the normal treatments of health issues is very much stretched (very sad to see (and also a bit to worry)). Still a bit to worry on family and neighbors.

Still in the defense of Hungary, solutions are found even if there might be a (too?) strong reaction for preparing for worst case scenarios.
Again I would like to say that I agree with lock downs, but I do recognize for working people the impact (without savings it is horrible to lose your job).

Personally I expect a second wave with a huge impact and loosening might mean to accept casualties of elderly people. (I think especially in Western Europe people will start to be a victim), now things are still relatively fine, but things might get much worse in September or October (perhaps with much effort a vaccine might be available but for people and society to survive it will be VERY difficult to cope (even if I believe (in my relative comfortable situation) it is the right thing to do).

Locking down people of 50+ is also a solution, but equally difficult.

cdw057 wrote:

A good post from Fluffy2560, I do not know what will happen, my main message remains grass is not more green at the other side of the river. Indeed possible to re-domicile as it seems (I personally was quite amazed (surprised), but being in elderly homes (or hospitals) especially in these times is not a pleasure I think.

I personally think that she wants to come back within 6 weeks (a few weeks in quarantaine and a few weeks in a German elderly home). These are VERY difficult times and life is not as it used to be (apart from the fact that we all get older and loose certain abilities and start to be less clever or loose memories). ...

.... The mother of our gardener (with whom we have a very good relationship with) has been "shipped" out to a hospital more then 100 km away (having said that visiting is not allowed anyhow).

Still in the defense of Hungary, solutions are found even if there might be a (too?) strong reaction for preparing for worst case scenarios.
Again I would like to say that I agree with lock downs, but I do recognize for working people the impact (without savings it is horrible to lose your job).

....

Locking down people of 50+ is also a solution, but equally difficult.

If they shove all the people into old folks/nursing homes then they'll be infected if one person brings in the virus. It's concentrating all the vulnerable people into a single space.   I know from some of my relatives, if they have dementia, then they don't really know that you're not there anyway.  I have one relative who is so far gone, his kids don't even bother visiting now because he doesn't recognise them and is mostly in a coma like state.  They just phone once a week.  There's a chance that if someone goes into a home they aren't coming out again.

Vaccine - I don't think we'll see that for years.   Look at HIV.  They've never managed to fully get to grips with it and still haven't and it's been 40 years.   

HU government states it's on top of it but one has to take most things with a pinch of salt - the statistics don't seem to add up on the infected and they still continuously try and slip in blame for refugees or LGBT groups or Soros  or EU for everything.   It's ludicrous they try that as though it's a priority and even more ludicrous that their supporters believe it.  I begin to wonder (again) if HU exists alone in some kind of alternate reality.   

In all the time I've been coming and going and living here (since the mid-90s), I've pondered about what aspects of the society drives their national pysche - seems to be mainly fear built on xenophobia, fatalism and perhaps a sense of automatically being subservient to someone or something.  Contrast that with the can-do attitude or individuality elsewhere

cdw057 wrote:

A good post from Fluffy2560, I do not know what will happen, my main message remains grass is not more green at the other side of the river. Indeed possible to re-domicile as it seems (I personally was quite amazed (surprised), but being in elderly homes (or hospitals) especially in these times is not a pleasure I think.
I personally think that she wants to come back within 6 weeks (a few weeks in quarantaine and a few weeks in a German elderly home). These are VERY difficult times and life is not as it used to be (apart from the fact that we all get older and loose certain abilities and start to be less clever or loose memories).
BTW same applies for me (in the past I was very reactive, clever (I tend to think), life becomes more difficult if getting a bit older and not easy to accept for all. (also not for me but that is besides the topic).

On hospitals, some people have indeed "normal" problems and you can notice the difference in acceptance or treatments. The mother of our gardener (with whom we have a very good relationship with) has been "shipped" out to a hospital more then 100 km away (having said that visiting is not allowed anyhow). Still the normal treatments of health issues is very much stretched (very sad to see (and also a bit to worry)). Still a bit to worry on family and neighbors.

Still in the defense of Hungary, solutions are found even if there might be a (too?) strong reaction for preparing for worst case scenarios.
Again I would like to say that I agree with lock downs, but I do recognize for working people the impact (without savings it is horrible to lose your job).

Personally I expect a second wave with a huge impact and loosening might mean to accept casualties of elderly people. (I think especially in Western Europe people will start to be a victim), now things are still relatively fine, but things might get much worse in September or October (perhaps with much effort a vaccine might be available but for people and society to survive it will be VERY difficult to cope (even if I believe (in my relative comfortable situation) it is the right thing to do).

Locking down people of 50+ is also a solution, but equally difficult.

No one has a right to lock down anyone because of their age, I'll sign a waver first or go out on the lam..Have to hunt me down first!
I see children are getting this virus in the UK now, at least that was news yesterday.
My friend in Las Vegas lost her mom 3 days ago. She was allowed into the nursing home to say good bye to her.
Just too much death, time for some good times and soon!
Most people abuse their bodies then cry when it fails them... What did they expect to happen when they over drink and eat junk foods all the time, don't sleep well and are under stress all the time?
I have heard about many people, in fact my SIL's mother was one, one of those who turn the world upside down and cry about dying , making everyone around them feel horrible  and nothing but relief when they finally do pass on.
My Vegas friend said her beloved mother was that way at times in the past.She even took a course in home care, gave up a good job to take care of her mother at home because every helper quit on them.
Well she also had to give it up and put her mom in a home, she was too much for anyone to listen to for long.
That's the bad thing about modern medical treatments, they keep people around past their time in some cases....
My step-father was only 40 years old when he found out he had advanced colon cancer.
My mother was 12 years his senior and they had 2 young children still at home plus my teen aged brother.
Last thing one would expect is a strong young man of only 40 to get so ill.
He lived 3 more years and NEVER ever saw him feeling sorry for himself even though it was a family tra gedy.He even told me once that he knew he was dying and would be gone soon. I was in my 20's and couldn't talk about it really, not mature enough for that conversation at that time, it was creepy.
My parents were not big social people but just before my step-father passed they had a huge party at their house. It was surprizing that over 60 people from his work came all the way to the house, about 50 miles from nowhere. It was nice to see my step-father say good-bye to everyone without getting all emotional and weird. It was a fun day with a huge BBQ and lots of laughing and joking going on.
I also had a close girlfriend , she was 7 years my senior, more like an older sister really. Our boys would play together and we later visited each other when we bought homes far apart.
She had polio as a child, lived in an iron lung for over a year. Had a rod put into her spine but no one would know they way she carried herself, got married and had children , even opened up her own children's clothing shop with her mother.
Really smart and nice lady with tons of class. Well, at 45 she got breast cancer and it was bad, her husband had to hook her up on a machine at night so she could breathe. I moved out of the state but we talked on the phone. MY sister passed away and this friend was there for me and never told me her time was short too. I called her up one day soon after my sister died and her sweet husband told me she had died a few days before I rang. No big wows me or super emotional freak outs on anyone. Her boys were just teenagers by then and her husband and she were together since they were teens.
So many brave people out there it makes me ill when someone tries to kick and scream all the way to the grave.
Thought I'd add a disclaimer: Don't hold it against me if I go out kicking and screaming after all this big talk!