Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

MickSahni · 2012-03-14 12:36:22

Hi All,

I am a 36 year old male, working in Banking as an IT Business Analyst here in London. I have 8 years of work experience with many global Banking Brands, but NONE of them are Canadian.

I am originally from India, but have studied and worked in UK for last 12 years.

My Wife is Nurse so getting canadian Residency wont be hard for us.

I really really want to move to Toronto.....Its open wide spaces and laid back lifestyle (compared to london UK) is extremely tempting !! I have visited Toronto Twice and loved it !

BUT....after reading this and so many other fourms and blogs I am getting skeptical if it is really worth spending so much money on Immigration process and then the ultimate move if foreign qualifications and experience are not recognized in canada.

I have heard nightmare stories where professionals with experience from top countries like UK and USA have not found jobs in their industry for years in Canada. Are Canadian employers that narrow minded to everyone or there are exceptions ???

I don't know if to listen to my mind or heart at this stage...mind says no, heart says lets go ahead and apply to immigrate.

I would like to hear more of your experiences, some advice would also be appreciated...I would like to make an informed decision at the end of the day, something that I won't regret if I look back 10 years from now.

Harmonie · 2012-03-14 12:45:32

Hi MickSahni and welcome to Expat Blog!

Do not hesitate to browse through the forum, it may help.

Hope that other members will share their experience with you soon. wink

Harmonie.

sajithvdy · 2012-03-16 06:59:56

Hello Mr. MickSahni,

I am Sajith kumar from India. I also face the same problem described by you and not able to take a decision since last one year.

MickSahni · 2012-03-16 10:21:02

Hi Sajith,

The fact that so many people of Non Canadian Origin have not been able to find Jobs is a Huge Turn off.....

...highly skilled and educated professionals are working as Taxi Drivers, Courier delivery, Pizza chefs and Cleaners.....

Really, I would rather go back to India than clean toilets in Canada...

But in the end, I do empathise with Canadians as well, they were there first, so its their right give jobs to Canadian Born Residents...But why would Canadian Goverment import Three Hundred Thousand People every year if there are no "real" jobs in the economy...

Wait and See Approach...

sajithvdy · 2012-03-16 12:00:45

Hi MickSahni,

You are right. Even after sound educational qualification and work experience, not getting suitable job is disappointing. That had caused me to shelve my ambition to procure Canadian PR, since it requires huge investment & time.

Robert549 · 2012-03-20 22:40:49

I was born and raised in Toronto, and have a home in Toronto.

While Toronto is always rated in the Top 10 cities to live and work; moving/relocating here from anywhere is serious business.

The stories you may have heard about foreign qualifications not being recognized and strict professional certification rules (for everyone, not just foreign professionals) is true. Now, having said this, this is the result of politics and an accreditaion system (for many professions)that is based on a core system that has not been updated for decades (before Canada's liberalized immigration system). While it would be easy to call this discrimination, and many do, this is not the case, as Canada as a whole has given up a great deal culturally to accomodate people from all over the world in pursuing its vision as a multicultural country. This is just an old system and needs to be updated in light of Canada's immigration policies, and while it a priority with the government, it is not a top priority.

As an aside note, for the record, there are a large percentage of Canadian citizens (non-immigrant) who are unemployed, who cannot get work as teachers, engineers and other professionals, etc. because of certification criteria, and largely government and corporate cut backs and downsizing.

From what I see, there are people that immigrate and make it here because of the access they have to more opportunity/options than where they came from, and they come with perserverance and a plan. However, there are also just as many people who fail and return home. This is the reality. Just like anywhere, you have to do the research, realize it is going to be a lot of hard work getting re-established, and realize that the competition for foreign trained professionals and trades will be firece in cities such as Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc. because this is where the majority of newcomers want to go.

Just as in America, you can make money in Canada but you will find that the quality of life is less than other places (where there is limited money making possibilities)but at least you can tuck your kids in at night. Anywhere you go will have its tradeoffs and issues. The important thing is to have a realistic plan, with a realistic plan 'B' as well.

I am proud to be a Canadian, born and raised but like you have seen many changes, not all for the best perhaps (compared to what I have known) and look to make a departure to 'greener pastures.'

I wish you all the best.

Robert

MickSahni · 2012-03-24 11:59:22

Thanks for that response Robert.

You have very much summarized what might be in the minds of many Canadians...

But the fundamental issue still remains the same, Why is Canadian Government issuing Residence Visas and Work Permits like Pamphlets when they know well that there are hardly any jobs in the economy and Millions of Canadian Born Residents are Unemployed !

Because Canada has such a wonderful image of a Prosperous, Happy, Peaceful, Safe, and somewhat "Perfect" Country, Educated Professionals from Third World leave everything and take the Gamble of moving to Canada....sometimes loosing their lifesavings and a professional career, end up driving taxis and cleaning toilets...

The Government Knows this is happening but they are still keeping the floodgates open.....Again, you might present an argument "nobody asked you to come here"....but the fact that there are legal options avaible to immigrate is an OPEN Invitation from the Canadian Government....

If I am not careful, I would come to Canada and find myself in a very difficult position...Yes I would like to come to Canada, I loved the place during my visits, but I would like to ensure that Price I pay for my adventure does cost me my Career...

Robert549 · 2012-03-26 20:29:50

To address your question, based on my own experience and perception as a Canadian born citizen who has lived in Canada through several decades:

Canada, despite the size of its inhabitable landmass has an ageing population and being that it is a democratic socialist country, has a need to repopulate its workforce with young(er) people (less than 40 years old) who will be able to support the infrastructure through taxes, consumerism and business start-ups. This will ensure that the government can maintain its revenue base (for social/infrastructure programs and its own salaries) and increase/maintain some form of Canadian economy in general. With foreign exchange rates and international monetary markets being what they are, the government is well aware of the critical need to maintain its GNP in the competitive world market, and in order to do this it must have an “intelligent” unskilled labour force that will work at minimum wage in return for maximum ROI. “Intelligent” unskilled labourers are hard to find but put in an immigration program for foreign trained professionals and this solves both the problems I have outlined. The foreign trained professional will be the “intelligent” unskilled labourer while awaiting/studying for his/her professional accreditation (typically 3 years) and will be a good taxpayer/consumer, then should they obtain their professional status they will continue to be good taxpayer/consumers. However, if they become disenchanted and decide not to pursue their profession, the possibility is high that they will remain in Canada as an “intelligent” unskilled worker for the rest of their life. Either way, for the government it is a win-win situation.

Now, to be totally fair, there are professions in Canada where there is a scarcity, for example medical doctors in rural (northern) regions of Canada, but the problem is that the majority (not all) foreign trained physicians want to work in the major cities (like everyone else).

The purpose of my responses to you and for anyone else reading these responses is to give a REALISTIC view of the situation, based on what I see everyday.

Canada is a beautiful place, the people (born here and who have immigrated) are pleasant and we do all get along for the most part. However, like everywhere else, we do have our problems – economic, employment, crime, politicians and government with their own agenda. No matter where you go and no doubt where you live right now, you have the same issues; and life is not easy but it is manageable. The only difference between where you are and where I am right now is that the problems/situation percentages of “this,” “that,” and “the other” are different but in the end they all still equal 100%! No matter where you go, there will always be tradeoffs, so in the end it comes down to how well you have planned and ultimately despite everything around you, how content you are personally.

If you want a life of adventure, you have to trade security – if you want a life of security, you have to trade adventure. No matter what life you choose, you must resign yourself to two facts; there are never any guarantees, and you must always have a realistic plan.

MickSahni · 2012-03-30 21:59:07

Thanks Robert,Couldn't Agree with you more.....all comes down to Trade offs and a Realistic Plan...

No place is perfect, but in the end some are more imperfect than others....

I think, in the end I might end up staying where I am....until the world economy improves drastically.

sajithvdy · 2012-03-31 07:46:33

Thank you Mr. Robert. Your explanation clarified most of the questions in my mind, whose answers I was trying to find out.

I was wondering,about the necessity of professional accreditation again after providing us PR under skilled worker category, which is issued after verifying our qualifications & experience.

Thank you for your article.

Sajith kumar

uktocanada · 2012-04-04 14:03:22

Hi all

I work in the UK in the IT sector too. Contemplating on moving to Canada but I am glad to have found this site/forum and this specific thread. I am still at the early stages of research(started last week). I did not realize that it is that difficult for professionals to find a job !!!

However , I must admit that our move is more to provide good oppurtunities to kids . Apart form life being better than in UK , The Health care professionals' salaries are much higher, the profession is more respected and hopefully, Canada also will give oppurtunities for further graduate eduacation in Healthcare (medicine/Dentistry). With Uni fees going up from this year, the difference in cost will be marginal as well.

I still need to do a lot of research on the follwoing but any help from the members is hugely appreciated:

1. Can the children get admission in canadian universities on landing in canada with PR or should they spend an year before qualifying?

2. Can I set up my own company and work in USA on contract positions with Canadian PR or a H1B for USA is required ? Unlikely I guess. Example : Live in Windsor and work in Detroit

3.Can I work in USA after I become Canadian citizen and travel freely back and forth between US-CA , like we can do in Europe ?

4. How is canada for retirement ? I know it is not sunny and cheap like florida but I still want to explore teh option for a semi-retirement if not reirement

Thanks in advance for your replies
Best regards

Last edited by uktocanada (2012-04-04 14:09:10)

covhat · 2012-04-10 21:03:27

My experiences so far have been incredibly depressing. I came to Canada last April on an open work permit and worked at a fishing lodge in Ontario last summer. Since then, I have been applying for (and failing) to get many interviews in Toronto.

Recruitment agencies have been useless, even for temporary contracts doing simple data entry. I have now been given PR status through the spousal route, yet applying for roles with a tailored 'Canada friendly' resume has yielded very little response.

The amount of jobs where I meet every single requirement based on my skills and experiences but do not hear from is plentiful. I have even passed telephone interviews, but not been invited for second interviews due to lack of Canadian experience.

Qualifications is not the issue for me, I have them from back home but the jobs I apply for don't require them. With legal status, a tailored resume, and meeting all set criteria, I'm getting nowhere. I feel the simple reason is because I don't have the famed Canadian experience.

I feel like packing my bags and leaving, calling it quits here and admitting defeat. I have tried so hard to make it work, built up my networks, but there is few people willing to even invite me for an interview. The only reason I am staying is because I don't want to be viewed as a failure back home.

I'm English, have incredible experience in my field and can contribute to Canadian business, and I really, really, really did not move here to work in Starbucks or Tim Hortons. I want to be successful in Business but that's hard when you are not invited to the party.

Suzie Que · 2012-04-11 18:59:57

hi covhat,

i'm not sure if this has crossed your mind already, but have you solicited intern positions with cdn firms? i think if your skills are demonstrated and your performance is observed, then the likelihood of an employer taking you on would improve.

there are also government programs to help new comers but i have to confess, they may only be available to new cdn citizens...nevertheless, it may help to go to a service canada office near you and inquire.

here's a link to their website:
servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/home.shtml

and here's a link to the page relating to cdn experience:
credentials.gc.ca/jobs/challenges/work-experience.asp

and one on skills & development:
hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/corporate/priorities/jobs_training.shtml

wish you luck.

Last edited by Suzie Que (2012-04-11 19:00:57)

covhat · 2012-04-11 19:36:13

Thanks for the reply and the links, both very useful.

I can understand the 'try before you buy' philosophy of Canadian firms to some extent, but an effective interview screening process, plus a skills test, is all that is really needed in my opinion. Many jobs here have three interview stages, so would that really not be good enough to determine if someone's experience from outside of Canada makes them suitable for the role?!

I get that there are hundreds applying for the one role, but is shortlisting the best candidates regardless of Canadian experience such a hard thing to do? Rather than ruling out (discriminating) against people who haven't been to a Canadian university / worked in industry here. The experience they have gained from other countries (even USA) may make them an even better candidate for a role!

Ultimately, it is discrimination and protectionism where it seems the only way to get a role is to work for free and hope a budget to give you paid employment appears down the line. Not how I had envisioned Canada when I arrived...

Sorry for the rant, I'm just incredibly frustrated. I want to enjoy being here, the lifestyle is great, Toronto is fun, the people very friendly, but I need paid employment to benefit from living here sad

Suzie Que · 2012-04-11 21:07:08

i'm not at all put off by your frustration...in fact, i think it's entirely fair. and considering our population is so small, birth rate next to nothing and aging baby boomers, it boggles my mind why our government isn't doing more to facilitate newcomers entry into the market place. i know there are less than optimistic theories regarding why this is the case, but it just doesn't make sense.

i really do feel for you. who can afford to live without income?? even cdns feel the need to earn a living so it shouldn't surprise any of us when newcomers want to work too.

i have experience in recruiting...i worked for a large investment bank which utilized psychometric testing and relied heavily on its results (in relation to suitability), however that said, i put forward arguments for a few candidates i felt could learn on the job or acquire the social skills as they gained familiarity with the environment etc. one candidate did adapt however one did not. so i can see where suitability does factor in. nevertheless, employers can bring you aboard on a contract if they still have reservations.

can you join any local business associations like the board of trade? i wonder if that would help you with networking. there's a chapter in downtown toronto in the first cdn place complex.

have you tried incorporating and pursuing independent contracts? that may also be a route to try.

i'm not re-inventing the wheel i know, but please don't give up. my ancestors were irish and came over during the potato famiine so i know they struggled and faced prejudice too.

i really do wish you luck. and if it helps, keep venting! better to get the energy out of you than carrying it around.

adrianacyrus · 2012-07-06 18:22:59

Did you ask yourself why you want to move in Toronto? Because if you have the same type of job, earnings etc in London why moving to another country if you're gonna left your wife in London. Not unless if she will be coming with you.

MickSahni · 2012-07-21 22:15:33

adrianacyrus,

If you question was for me then here is the Answer. London is a Great City, one of the best on the planet, but has its fair share of problems. London is a Very Stressful place with Grey Clouds all year round and very little sunshine. It is very conjusted and Cost of Living had already gone through the Roof. Comparible properties cost more than twice in London when compared to Toronto. London does offer prosperity to educated professionals but does take away peace of mind.

In my visits to Toronto I was impressed how spacious and relaxed this city is when compared to London, I could breath in Toronto. Also people seemed less stressed and worried when compared to London. As percapita incomes are same in these two cities, Toronto is a much better deal if I can find a Job in my occupation.

Hericles · 2012-11-07 16:35:58

Toronto is not the most affordable city in Canada. But if you are well off go for it!

wjwoodward · 2012-11-23 15:26:15

Hi MickSahni,

As a native born Canadian I must agree that all of Robert549s observations are bang on. The greatest obstacle without a doubt is Canada's excellence in education and in order to preserve that the acreditation process for those coming to Canada with diplomas from foreign educational institutions is extremely rigorous; and rightly so in order to protect that worldwide reputation. Trust me, I've lived in Brazil for eleven years now and it's a thousand times easier for foreigners to have their academic achievements recognized in Canada than it is here in Brazil.

Another factor that has a very negative impact on a foreigner's ability to obtain work has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination or "narrow mindedness" on the part of employers as you ask is the economic crisis that took place in the USA and its effect on the Canadian economy and unemployment rates. Obviously when it is now difficult for Canadian citizens with diplomas to find employment it stands to reason it's going to be much more difficult still for foreigners. That's just an unfortunate fact of life. You can imagine in a country where in excess of 80% of the population lives within a 300 Km. ribbon of territory stretching along the Canada/USA border at least in terms of the economy when the USA sneezes Canada catches a cold too.

As Robert points out, and I am extremely proud of as well, Canadians have gone the extra distance to make everyone coming to our shores from foreign lands feel welcome. We've done so by design, to embrace them and celebrate their differences and their culture. We have even sacrificed many parts of our own culture and traditions, especially religious ones in order to accomplish this noble goal.

Yes, it is hard for foreigners to find work... sad but true. However if you do succeed to overcome the difficulties everything else about the country makes all the hardships worthwhile. You couldn't be living in a better place.

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-Blog Team

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Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#1 2012-03-14 12:36:22

Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#2 2012-03-14 12:45:32

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#3 2012-03-16 06:59:56

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#4 2012-03-16 10:21:02

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#5 2012-03-16 12:00:45

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#6 2012-03-20 22:40:49

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#7 2012-03-24 11:59:22

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#8 2012-03-26 20:29:50

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#9 2012-03-30 21:59:07

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#10 2012-03-31 07:46:33

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#11 2012-04-04 14:03:22

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#12 2012-04-10 21:03:27

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#13 2012-04-11 18:59:57

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#14 2012-04-11 19:36:13

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#15 2012-04-11 21:07:08

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#16 2012-07-06 18:22:59

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#17 2012-07-21 22:15:33

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#18 2012-11-07 16:35:58

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

#19 2012-11-23 15:26:15

Re: Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

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