Your experience of culture shock in Puerto Rico

Dear Christine,  I must continue to remind you that while Spanish is the dominant language spoken in Puerto Rico,  if you are an American Citizen and move to Puerto Rico from one of the ec50 states,  you are NOT living in a foreign country.  You are living in the  part of the USA.   Puerto Rico is not a country... Things might be different but no different than moving from say Minnesota to Hawaii  or even Connecticut to Arizona.  this is a continuing issue made worse by poor use of language.  So unless the reader is moving from France to Puerto Rico... This is NOT a foreign country!

Not sure if this counts as culture shock per se, but it may help others new or fairly new to PR.  When we found out that we were being assigned to PR (wife is active duty military), I decided to brush up on my rusty high school Spanish before coming here.  I used some textbooks, Rosetta Stone, Language apps and practiced with a friend.

When I am out-and-about, I try and use as much Spanish as I can.  Books, apps, etc. only go so far - one really needs to be using the language in everyday situations.  Overall my Spanish has been steadily improving, and I am getting more and more comfortable with day-to-day things.  I even translated a couple of times for some people!!!

When we first got to the island, we were living in Old San Juan.  Going to restaurants, grocery stores, cafes, etc. I would try speaking exclusively in Spanish.  I'd say about 75% of the time people would immediately switch to English.  I was confused - was I butchering the language that badly?  Was I insulting people?  Were they becoming impatient with me?  I couldn't figure it out.

One afternoon I sat down with one of my wife's co-workers who is born and raised in PR and explained my dilemma.  He assured me not to take it personally, as most people here sincerely appreciate the attempt to speak Spanish.  He told me that people in PR that can speak English are incredibly proud of their ability to speak English and like to use it as much as they can.

So, when this happens, I continue to speak Spanish, and they continue to speak English.  It's probably not the most ideal way to keep up with learning, but it's fun.  Sometimes I'll ask them if they can speak exclusively in Spanish for a while, then we'll both switch to English.  Win-win situation.

We're moving WHERE? wrote:

Dear Christine,  I must continue to remind you that while Spanish is the dominant language spoken in Puerto Rico,  if you are an American Citizen and move to Puerto Rico from one of the ec50 states,  you are NOT living in a foreign country.  You are living in the  part of the USA.   Puerto Rico is not a country... Things might be different but no different than moving from say Minnesota to Hawaii  or even Connecticut to Arizona.  this is a continuing issue made worse by poor use of language.  So unless the reader is moving from France to Puerto Rico... This is NOT a foreign country!

This also may not technically correct, although some parts are a matter of dispute. Puerto Rico arguably part of U.S. - in fact it is 'unincorporated territory' (meaning territory belonging to but not part of the United States). Puerto Rico, under its current status, is more directly akin to a partially self-governing colonial possession of the U.S. than part of the U.S. Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens (since 1917 when the U.S. congress found it convenient to enlarge the draft pool for WWI); however the U.S. constitution does not automatically apply to Puerto Rico. (Although most constitutional rights have been extended to Puerto Rico as an act of congress.) I also think that there could be a philosophical discussion about whether - even if Puerto Rico is not a 'country' distinct from the U.S. - it may be a distinct 'nation,' if not a 'nation-state'. Also, PR has it's own Olympic team. No U.S. state can claim that distinction

This is about to become a set of contention points.
Remember that you all were told never to discuss politics or religion? These items deal with FEELINGS and feelings change over time, so we all tend to choose a different side of a discussion from time to time.

Here are my 2 cents, some of you will strongly disagree with a lot of it, but I am exercising my right to free speech.

In many ways you are both correct!!!!!!!! But there is more, the issue is past the technical points, it is also about equality and how people feel inside.

Don't get me wrong ….. The american form of government is the best one I see out there, but it is not perfect, not if you open your eyes and look at it objectively.

While USA does not practices slavery in the same form as before, PR is not an equal and will probably never be, even if it became a State. The issue of Puerto Rico has been and continues to be an issue at the UN and it has been compared to slavery by some in the UN.

The People: In general, Puerto Ricans tend to be conformist, you give them a present and they will use it or give it to somebody else or put it in a kitchen drawer in case they need it someday, just like the citizenship that was Granted. You give them something bad and it is a trial from god that they just must endure, just like the unfair distribution of wealth, the inability to make some kinds of decisions and the requirement to use US sea carriers. Keep this conformist sense in mind as it tend to be a big part of everything else that happens.

The People in PR were given citizenship, yes given!!! We did not advocate for it, we did not fight for it. Now that we have it we will use it if we need to, but otherwise it is just going to sit in a kitchen drawer, until needed.

I was living in the island and decided to join the Army, unlike me, others had no choice and were drafted because they were US Citizens.

It was simply an option for me since there were few jobs at the time and I needed to make some kind of mark in the world. A lot of people in the states also join because it is a job and a way to make their mark or for educational benefits, so I was in the same situation as the guy from Maine.

It was not until I was in the Army in the mainland, that for the first time I felt “American”. While in the island, the US is a power nebulous thing that we really never experienced.

Prior to joining the military, I like many others felt “Puerto Rican”, since my culture and language had little to do with the US and we are far away, so being American was in a drawer as I explained previously.

Many people in PR feel that PR is a nation. The fact that that “nation” is mainly in our minds, is a separate issue, it is how people feel. Tell a Frenchman that he is European and not French and he will correct you. International laws and agreements has nothing to do with the heart.

As to congress: Congress does what it does primary for 2 reasons: Power and Votes. Since Puerto Ricans living in the island do not have the right to vote, they matter little to congress and as long as they can still look good to the UN and others, whatever happens in PR has little effect on their power. On the flip side of that, the president and congress do not want PR to become independent either, as that can opens the possibility of the island becoming communist or having some other form of government that is not USA friendly. Remember a lot of South and Central American are not what I call fully USA friendly.

Besides being told in 1917 that we were Americans, Puerto Rico was also told to develop their own constitution in 1952 as long as it was subservient to the US and it meet certain parameters given by congress and the administration at the time. This was done to appease the UN, not out of the goodness of congress heart or sense of equality.

So far, some of the people want to stay are they are “Estado Libre Associado”, in an ambivalent form of union with the USA because of a combination of being conformist, the dependancy created and the ability to later change their minds and have a different form of government.

A growing group of Puerto Ricans soon likely will become a majority, want Puerto Rico to be a state because they want to be equals. But that is not true. Maine is not equal to California or Texas. The “equality” of a particular state depends on what congress thinks it can get from that state and its voters.

The independent movement is small but growing and they want PR to be its own internationally recognised country / nation. I think it could happen but this rush for statehood will forever make independence impossible.

How do I feel? I definitely don't want PR to be a state, and I am not sure which of the other two options I want, both have negatives but the door remains open to go in any direction in the future.

In short, it is about the heart of the people, not the technical details or the lines in a map.

Just my opinion.
Rey

Thank you, Rey for your well expressed opinion and I have to agree although, I'm not living there.

Well said Rey!!


Reading thru your comment remind me of my reasons to leave the island and why I want to go back.....

These are not" Feelings" nor are they merely semantic.... We ARE NOT AN EXPAT...  I am not an expat..I live in an area of the USA.. Are DC Washingtonians expats? .. It's poor use of language.. Period.

We're moving WHERE? wrote:

These are not" Feelings" nor are they merely semantic.... We ARE NOT AN EXPAT...  I am not an expat..I live in an area of the USA.. Are DC Washingtonians expats? .. It's poor use of language.. Period.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. However I seen several of your posts where you come across as angry, maybe it is just me.

ReyP wrote:

We're moving WHERE? wrote:

These are not" Feelings" nor are they merely semantic.... We ARE NOT AN EXPAT...  I am not an expat..I live in an area of the USA.. Are DC Washingtonians expats? .. It's poor use of language.. Period.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. However I seen several of your posts where you come across as angry, maybe it is just me.

I am going to say something that used to drive my mother crazy, but it fits this situation:
CHILL OUT!  Something that I notice in new visitors to PR is they say 'Isn't there a law?' or 'What's the rule?'  Then slowly, if they stay here long enough, there is the  transition to the  PR lifestyle.  The need for proliferative RULES and REGULATIONS, political correctness and the need to convince others that you are RIGHT and they are WRONG, slowly fades into the memories attached to a former tight-*ss approach to living.  Then there is the 'aha' moment when the PR lifestyle makes sense and you find you give up that spiritual need to frown first. 
I do not know the source of this quote, but I have adopted it: I would rather be happy than right.

Hahaha, so funny, that's exactly what happens to me almost all the time!
But if I am running out of my spanish and asking someone if they speak english, they almost always say no! 😂😂😂😂

But it can't stay that way, that's for sure!!

Well, I made the mistake of waiting for a bus at Sagarado Corazon bound for Ocean park. I'm still waiting. Four years later. It's getting a little annoying, can any listmates send a cab down here to retrieve me?

labochinchosa wrote:

Well, I made the mistake of waiting for a bus at Sagarado Corazon bound for Ocean park. I'm still waiting. Four years later. It's getting a little annoying, can any listmates send a cab down here to retrieve me?

You been standing there now for 4 years?
You should have let me know, I would have given you a ride the last two times I was in the island.
You should have only waited for 6 months, 4 years is a little too long to wait for the bus.

Thank you Rey and Frogrock for your sensible approach to this issue.  I am the sort of person who has trouble dealing with grey areas and things that aren't black and white, but over the years I've learned that this attitude has not brought me happiness. And it does not reflect reality.

Rey, your  post was so good at describing the way things are in PR, and the way that people here deal with life. Thank you!

The longer  I am  here the easier it becomes for me to accept things as they are and to enjoy the moment I am in.  I lived in Mexico for many years, and I was healthier and happier there than I've ever been before or since.  I highly recommend learning to live with, and even enjoy, those long waits (although 4 years IS a little excessive), the weird driving, the language differences, and even the political ambiguity. It's way more fun than getting angry!

Life in the island is about Family, Friends, Music, Dancing and living as economically as possible given that most have little monetary wealth. We rush to work because we have to, otherwise we would get there at a leisure pace.
There are 3.6 million people in an island that is 100 miles by 35 miles and only so many resources, so lines are long and everyone has come to accept it.
You could bring about change and bring the pace of the mainland to the island, but not many will join you, this slow pace is how we grew up.
Don't get upset or you will get ulcers and in the end not much wl change other than the number of doctor visits.
Relax, enjoy life, friends and family, life is too short.
Rey

I expect to sell my place and move to PR in the next 6-9 months, depending on buyers. After that every day will be a Saturday, as I will be retired, I will plant for food not profit, visit family, go to the beach and see a little of the island every month.
I will also look forward to the news about all the blizzards in the mainland while drinking a piña colada by my pool.

500 000 are expectet to leave the island because of the dept crisis.

Horses. Not sure how cultural it is, but on my first drive up the narrow mountain road on a dark Saturday night I encountered literally hundreds of people riding horses bareback on the road. I spent years in Texas and never saw that.
I think it is great! Just slow down and be wary of them. It is quite acceptable. The drivers all patiently slow and wait. watch for a horse being skittish. I may even get myself a horse, but not bareback. I could not stay on without at least stirrups.. I would probably wear one of those safety vests that glow in the dark, too.

Horses are very much part of the culture specially outside of metropolitan areas. We also raise the Paso Fino horses in the island which are a source of pride and used in a lot of competitions. If you have a place and is away from most traffic, it is a great way to enjoy yourself and go places.

We're moving WHERE? wrote:

We ARE NOT AN EXPAT...  I am not an expat..I live in an area of the USA.. Are DC Washingtonians expats? .. It's poor use of language.. Period.

You make the wrong assumption that all expats are moving here from the US. I am an expat from the Netherlands. Period.
Apart from that, although technically you are right for US citizens who move here, in many ways this feels like a different country (especially when you get out of the expat areas and go to the countryside..)

Ha, my first culture shock happened in 1990 when I first came here to live for a short stint. The biggest shock was how narrow the streets in OSJ were, I thought there was no way we were going to fit down that tiny road! I guess that isn't TRULY culture shock but it's what stood out the most to me. The next was how many holidays and parties that went on in OSJ, sometimes all night/weekend. And finally the abundance of homeless ppl, I always felt bad I didn't have more food to give but we were really young and pretty strapped ourselves.

I think the biggest of culture shocks is how the natives leave their trash everywhere and the health care service. Lots of fried and very unhealthy food as well. The natives also have no boundaries they feel they can go on anyone's property. Gates don't stop them and they feel they were doing nothing wrong when you address them

The only thing that "shocks" me is the (mal)treatment of animals. The most shocking experience was seeing three horses being transported in the back of an open truck with one of then on it's back with it's legs in the air. Other "shocks" are seeing dogs tied up, dirt and unncared for, thirsty and hungry.

What I don't find shocking is the warm climate, friendly people, good surfing and excellent gringo and expat community 

victorlglass wrote:

The only thing that "shocks" me is the (mal)treatment of animals. The most shocking experience was seeing three horses being transported in the back of an open truck with one of then on it's back with it's legs in the air. Other "shocks" are seeing dogs tied up, dirt and unncared for, thirsty and hungry.

What I don't find shocking is the warm climate, friendly people, good surfing and excellent gringo and expat community 

It should be legal to treat the owners in the same way they treat their animals.

victorlglass wrote:

The only thing that "shocks" me is the (mal)treatment of animals. The most shocking experience was seeing three horses being transported in the back of an open truck with one of then on it's back with it's legs in the air. Other "shocks" are seeing dogs tied up, dirt and unncared for, thirsty and hungry.

What I don't find shocking is the warm climate, friendly people, good surfing and excellent gringo and expat community 

The horse on its back with legs in the air sounds like a dead horse to me.

Have you seen the documentary 100,000? It's about the reality in PR of stray, homeless, abused dogs and the overall attitude that many seem to hold towards dogs. It is a huge problem that I am not looking forward to seeing (because it makes me sad). I have worked with rescue groups here in Minnesota and the problems we have here with homeless dogs cannot even compare to PR. To my boyfriends dismay I am sure I will end up fostering dogs in PR. He prefers to not have animals in the house.

No, the horse was alive and kicking - that's what disturbed me most. Concerning dogs there is a standing joke: if you want a dog how to you get one? Stand on the right street corner and catch one being thrown out of a car window. Seems that people want a dog, keep it for a few weeks or months until they are tired of it, then get rid of it. My next door neighbor keeps two dogs on the second floor back patio which is also their toilet since they are never walked or leave the patio and piss and shit there. Periodically the owner comes out and gathers or the shit for disposal somewhere. The owner often leave them for 2 or three days and they cry, whine, and bark and drive me nuts. I once confronted the owner and asked him why he even bothers to own a dog. His replay - he's always had dogs. He thinks he's doing the dogs a favor. He said he rescued one that was very neglected. Yes, that's the way to go, from a very neglected situation to a lesser neglected one.

This thing about the treatment of animals is the most shocking thing for me in Puerto Rico by far.

victorlglass wrote:

No, the horse was alive and kicking - that's what disturbed me most

Uhmmm yes, that is alarming..and disturbing.

Hey Victor,
Maybe this may explain their mindset, but not all
a) Some get dogs for the kids, the adults don't like dogs, once the kids get tired of the dogs, the dog stay outside all the time and never get to play. Rarely sees a vet.
b) Others want the dog to defend the property or at a minimum bark when someones approach. The dog lives outside, it is mostly fed, but never plays, probably never sees a vet.
c) Some people like dogs, but don't love dogs, they take care of them but the dog is ignored most of the time. Some vet visits.
d) Some like me are the complete opposite, they are part of the family, we talk to them, we ask them questions, they get pet all the time, they are played with a lot, they sleep in bed and the dogs is mostly in the house unless they need to go out. Too bad that my family health insurance does not cover the dogs since they go to the vet at least 4 times a year.

Rey - I think you are spot on with your analysis. Yes a big difference between view of dogs in the States and PR is that in the USA many people see their dogs as a member of the family. The lack of attention and petting/massaging of the dogs in PR really get s to me. Dogs have a unique relationship with and connection to humans, have contributed significantly and positively to human evolution. Dogs make eye contact with humans like no other animal. All dogs apparently are descended from the Grey Wolf - however unlike dogs Wolves won't look you in the eye, but if they do you are in trouble. I'd love to have a dog as a companion but my life style does not permit it - a dog would increase the quality of my life greatly. Fortunately my neighbor has two dogs (I'm not referring to thge neighbor who keeps the dogs sequestered on the patio) I adore, one has only three legs but gets around very well although by the end of the day she is pooped.

One sugestion ..... Ask permision to pet and walk the dogs from time to time. Therevis a posibility that the guy may get part of the message when he seed how you deal with the dog and how the dog reacts with you. Some dogs need a lot of training, but mostly it is the owners that need the most training.

If that does not work, see if the owner walks by dark alleys

I tried to do that, I asked if I could walk the dogs, even take care of them when they are absent. No go. I guess their cultural position on how dogs are treated and what they need is very ingrained. I just ignore them now, I've tried my best.

P.S.: even when they are there they dogs whine and cry. During my encounter with my neighbor I suggested that he try petting the dogs in  order to stop them from making noise. No go.

Been doing just that for the past three months and loving it !!!!

victorlglass wrote:

I tried to do that, I asked if I could walk the dogs, even take care of them when they are absent. No go. I guess their cultural position on how dogs are treated and what they need is very ingrained. I just ignore them now, I've tried my best.

P.S.: even when they are there they dogs whine and cry. During my encounter with my neighbor I suggested that he try petting the dogs in  order to stop them from making noise. No go.

Do you have any idea why your neighbor even has dogs? Are the dogs there just to be guard dogs?

Unfortunate many dog owners in PR do not think of them as pets (thankfully this is changing), most folks see them as guard dogs and do not treat them as family members. As sad as it sounds, they treat them as a disposable item. Laws are changing in the island and they are getting more stiff regarding animal cruelty. More education is been done to correct this habit as well (just this week a priest was in the news for abandoning a dog).

As more people migrate from the mainland and bring cultural changes, people in the island realize they are more than just a "guardian". I can see this mentality changing with times, specially with the younger generation.

As a society, we still have a way to go to correct this mentality and hold people accountable.....

They are not guard dogs. As I said above I asked him why he even has dogs and his answer is "I was raised with dogs, I also have had dog". To me it's irrational. He works at home and does not like to pay attention to the dogs. They whine for attention while he is there and it seems that he tunes it out. Oh, he too gets frustrated with the noise the dogs make, saying that when one starts barking the other does too (and "I can't do anything about it"). His wife pays attention to the dogs more but the problem she does it sporadically. Her mother was over once and alone with the dogs and when the dogs starting barking she starting barking back which got them to bark more - I told her to stop it - that was a bit too much.
I am a dog lover but I've had fantasies of stealing these dogs, driving to Mayaguez and leaving them in the Home Depot parking lot.

This brings up noise. I am not "shocked" by the amount and volume of noise that hits our little apartment, but it can become ridiculous. We are on the top of a hill and it seems that all the noise around us, even in the distance, hits up loud. Often we have FOUR sources of noise hitting up from all directions: (1) the charismatic church next door in the valley; they use amplifiers, beat drums, yell and scream, sing badly; at one point I wanted to retaliate by broadcasting Hitler speeches but to my surprise the preaching at the church sounded EXACTLY like Hitler's rantings; (2) a neighbor that plays music on his outside speakers at the highest volume and the line of sight goes directly to our apartment; (3) our neighbor's dogs barking full blast; and (4) loud parties in various houses down the hill. Other than this occasional cacophony I love our apartment and it's location and price ($300/month utilities included).

victorlglass wrote:

They are not guard dogs. As I said above I asked him why he even has dogs and his answer is "I was raised with dogs, I also have had dog". To me it's irrational. He works at home and does not like to pay attention to the dogs. They whine for attention while he is there and it seems that he tunes it out. Oh, he too gets frustrated with the noise the dogs make, saying that when one starts barking the other does too (and "I can't do anything about it"). His wife pays attention to the dogs more but the problem she does it sporadically. Her mother was over once and alone with the dogs and when the dogs starting barking she starting barking back which got them to bark more - I told her to stop it - that was a bit too much.
I am a dog lover but I've had fantasies of stealing these dogs, driving to Mayaguez and leaving them in the Home Depot parking lot.

This brings up noise. I am not "shocked" by the amount and volume of noise that hits our little apartment, but it can become ridiculous. We are on the top of a hill and it seems that all the noise around us, even in the distance, hits up loud. Often we have FOUR sources of noise hitting up from all directions: (1) the charismatic church next door in the valley; they use amplifiers, beat drums, yell and scream, sing badly; at one point I wanted to retaliate by broadcasting Hitler speeches but to my surprise the preaching at the church sounded EXACTLY like Hitler's rantings; (2) a neighbor that plays music on his outside speakers at the highest volume and the line of sight goes directly to our apartment; (3) our neighbor's dogs barking full blast; and (4) loud parties in various houses down the hill. Other than this occasional cacophony I love our apartment and it's location and price ($300/month utilities included).

I would definitely tolerate that for a decent place at only $300 a month!

Just wait until elections time is closer and you will be hearing a lot more loud noises!!!