Would you PAY someone to help you find a JOB in Norway?

I loose my answer ... so I write it again.
I'am not a specialist but I spent several journeys and last year again in Norway and then I worked in Göteborg. As far as I understand and "study" their "scandinavian way of living"  my & their reaction will be    " Shoking !" - Their society is based on a ferm ethic - they are always talkin' about it - as equality Male / female ; politnes, non-violent attitude and a lot of behaviours like that which gave a cement to their culture.
So I think they will be deeply disapointed if it happens they learn it.
Personnally, I do want to settle but will never try that option. Some other may have a different opinion on this blog. who are living in Norway for a long time and they will certainly be better advisers than I am about such a question.
So long Davina
P.s : I'm french but certainly with a (too much) strong familial background  from Usa and german countries. I guess ! ...Got many Pb to deal with this in France my life long !!!

I work within a very specialized  major, so the question is not applicable for me, but I will give a general opinion if it is ok

The idea can be beneficial   for a specific sector of the job seekers, especially for those who  want to take their time to get settled in Norway correctly

on the other hand it could be hard among some other job seekers which need to pay for Norwegian language courses, and spend more money for living and studying the language so they need a quick practical support ,

Best wishes and regards.

Hey there, Foster-Ehle J-Ch.

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your input. It's really appreciated. Just to be sure that I don't misunderstand your reply, could you please clarify the following:

"As far as I understand and "study" their "scandinavian way of living"  my & their reaction will be    " Shoking !" - Their society is based on a ferm ethic - they are always talkin' about it - as equality Male / female ; politnes, non-violent attitude and a lot of behaviours like that which gave a cement to their culture."

What would be 'shoking'? (I'm assuming here you meant to write 'shocking'?).


"So I think they will be deeply disapointed if it happens they learn it."

Who would be deeply disappointed and what would they be deeply disappointed about?


"Personnally, I do want to settle but will never try that option."

What option will you never try? If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying you wouldn't pay for a service that makes the process of finding a job in Norway easier and more successful? Am I right or were you referring to something else?

"Some other may have a different opinion on this blog. who are living in Norway for a long time and they will certainly be better advisers than I am about such a question."

I am actually very happy to hear your input because my research is targeted at people who want to come to Norway, find a job and settle here. So I'm very grateful you have taken the time to respond. I would appreciate very much if you could answer the questions above. Many thanks once again!

Hey there, Ocean.

I really appreciate you taking the time to give your input! Thank you so much.

I am interested to know why you think this system would not work for you (and perhaps other people with a very specialized major)? I ask because it is my (initial) belief -- because through this exploratory research my opinions may change -- that the job seeking process is the same for ALL job seekers regardless of major / discipline.

You arrive in a new country in which you want to settle. You might have done some research beforehand and you might have already taken contact with some companies, but once you arrive here you're still a fish out of water. The first thing you do is start applying to jobs on places like finn.no and so on. You talk to people and try to put yourself out there as much as possible. This is something all job seekers do I believe, no?

There is nothing wrong with this per se, but everyone and their mother are doing the same thing, and the vast vast majority of foreigners who come here and use the strategy above are unsuccessful (they don't find a job within 6 mths and may have to leave Norway disappointed). Therefore, this system is specifically designed to zig where everyone else zag, so to speak, and can be used by everyone regardless of specialty or disciple.

Here's the thing, Ocean, a lot of the advice new arrivals receive both from well-meaning expats who are already settled in Norway and even from Norwegian orgs like NAV ... do not work for foreigners. The advice may work for Norwegian job seekers, but for the vast majority of foreigners, no.

For eg, a lot of people say 'you have to write a good CV & cover letter, one that stands out'. What does that even mean? There are only so many ways you can try to highlight your skills, and more than likely as a highly educated, intelligent person you've already tried them all. Short of printing your CV on pink paper and pinning an outrageous photo on it to catch the eye of the recruiter ... most of the these generic advice & fixes just don't work for most people.

Another thing foreigners are often told: you need to be proactive. Go out there and try to network! However, the people giving this advice (usually Norwegians) assume that their fellow countrymen are easy people to network with for foreigners. Norwegians are in fact highly skeptical - some would even say suspicious - people. They don't open up to foreigners easily, esp when they sense you want something from them. And if you're not naturally a super social butterfly who can tear down these barriers with your dazzling personality and smile, where does that leave you? Frustrated and back at square one.

So a lot of the advice given don't actually and specifically work for foreigners. They might work for other Norwegians, who already know their own culture and understand the psychology of Norwegian employers, but for a foreigner with no experience dealing with Norwegians it can be a very difficult and daunting experience which won't, and usually don't, result in a job for the vast majority of people.

This system empowers the foreigner, by showing them how to approach the job seeking process with an insider's knowledge of not only the job market & how to navigate it, but also the psychology of the people who you're trying sell yourself to.


"The idea can be beneficial   for a specific sector of the job seekers, especially for those who  want to take their time to get settled in Norway correctly."


I am intrigued by this comment. Could you give an example of the specific sector of job seekers you have in mind?

You're on to something with the last part of your comment, but I wouldn't say it's about settling correctly ... rather it would be about job hunting correctly. After all, you can't really settle until you secure yourself financially through steady income. So you have to find the job before you can settle.

"on the other hand it could be hard among some other job seekers which need to pay for Norwegian language courses, and spend more money for living and studying the language so they need a quick practical support ,"

I am definitely of the opinion that if you want to settle in someone else's country, you must learn their language. But ... and here is the 10 000 NOK question ... do you really *need* to know Norwegian right off the bat to find a job? I think the answer is no, but I do see that this might be debatable (I'd welcome your opinion). The truth is that many companies demand that job seekers speak Norwegian as a tactic to weed out foreign job seekers. I've seen cases in which a company that advertised a job for Norwegian speakers only ended up hiring a french Canadian who spoke no Norwegian because someone he knew in the company introduced him to the hiring manager. So while in the long run learning Norwegian is beneficial to anyone who wants to live here permanently ... it is never really a hindrance to those who know how to get around the system.

Many, many thanks for your feedback, Ocean! My reply to you is a bit longer than I planned, but I hope you'll be kind and respond. Thanks a lot!

Davina D wrote:

Hey there, Ocean.

I really appreciate you taking the time to give your input! Thank you so much.

I am interested to know why you think this system would not work for you (and perhaps other people with a very specialized major)? I ask because it is my (initial) belief -- because through this exploratory research my opinions may change -- that the job seeking process is the same for ALL job seekers regardless of major / discipline.

You arrive in a new country in which you want to settle. You might have done some research beforehand and you might have already taken contact with some companies, but once you arrive here you're still a fish out of water. The first thing you do is start applying to jobs on places like finn.no and so on. You talk to people and try to put yourself out there as much as possible. This is something all job seekers do I believe, no?

There is nothing wrong with this per se, but everyone and their mother are doing the same thing, and the vast vast majority of foreigners who come here and use the strategy above are unsuccessful (they don't find a job within 6 mths and may have to leave Norway disappointed). Therefore, this system is specifically designed to zig where everyone else zag, so to speak, and can be used by everyone regardless of specialty or disciple.

Here's the thing, Ocean, a lot of the advice new arrivals receive both from well-meaning expats who are already settled in Norway and even from Norwegian orgs like NAV ... do not work for foreigners. The advice may work for Norwegian job seekers, but for the vast majority of foreigners, no.

For eg, a lot of people say 'you have to write a good CV & cover letter, one that stands out'. What does that even mean? There are only so many ways you can try to highlight your skills, and more than likely as a highly educated, intelligent person you've already tried them all. Short of printing your CV on pink paper and pinning an outrageous photo on it to catch the eye of the recruiter ... most of the these generic advice & fixes just don't work for most people.

Another thing foreigners are often told: you need to be proactive. Go out there and try to network! However, the people giving this advice (usually Norwegians) assume that their fellow countrymen are easy people to network with for foreigners. Norwegians are in fact highly skeptical - some would even say suspicious - people. They don't open up to foreigners easily, esp when they sense you want something from them. And if you're not naturally a super social butterfly who can tear down these barriers with your dazzling personality and smile, where does that leave you? Frustrated and back at square one.

So a lot of the advice given don't actually and specifically work for foreigners. They might work for other Norwegians, who already know their own culture and understand the psychology of Norwegian employers, but for a foreigner with no experience dealing with Norwegians it can be a very difficult and daunting experience which won't, and usually don't, result in a job for the vast majority of people.

This system empowers the foreigner, by showing them how to approach the job seeking process with an insider's knowledge of not only the job market & how to navigate it, but also the psychology of the people who you're trying sell yourself to.


"The idea can be beneficial   for a specific sector of the job seekers, especially for those who  want to take their time to get settled in Norway correctly."


I am intrigued by this comment. Could you give an example of the specific sector of job seekers you have in mind?

You're on to something with the last part of your comment, but I wouldn't say it's about settling correctly ... rather it would be about job hunting correctly. After all, you can't really settle until you secure yourself financially through steady income. So you have to find the job before you can settle.

"on the other hand it could be hard among some other job seekers which need to pay for Norwegian language courses, and spend more money for living and studying the language so they need a quick practical support ,"

I am definitely of the opinion that if you want to settle in someone else's country, you must learn their language. But ... and here is the 10 000 NOK question ... do you really *need* to know Norwegian right off the bat to find a job? I think the answer is no, but I do see that this might be debatable (I'd welcome your opinion). The truth is that many companies demand that job seekers speak Norwegian as a tactic to weed out foreign job seekers. I've seen cases in which a company that advertised a job for Norwegian speakers only ended up hiring a french Canadian who spoke no Norwegian because someone he knew in the company introduced him to the hiring manager. So while in the long run learning Norwegian is beneficial to anyone who wants to live here permanently ... it is never really a hindrance to those who know how to get around the system.

Many, many thanks for your feedback, Ocean! My reply to you is a bit longer than I planned, but I hope you'll be kind and respond. Thanks a lot!

Hey Davina

Thank you for the reply.

I agree with the concept you are trying to explain,

why it is not applicable for me, hmmm

Because I do not have a problem to find a job,  there are few of me , not being brilliant or any thing, just working within a major that probably others did not know about or were not interested in,

in Europe, there are only 5, 6 persons of my level, that's why I did not have to learn Norwegian after 3 years of living in Bergen, and that's why I am not worried about a position, I will find one some where in the planet , the challenge can be ( how good is the position)
...

But I totally agree with your view and the points you focused on,

It is really hard to communicate and socialize in Norway, I have a lot to say about this issue , but may be in some other chance so I do not distract the topic
...

For those who are seeking new life in Norway, in addition to the language which I think it is a high priority, they should get at least familiarization,

they can learn and understand what I have learned in 3 years,. within 3 months ! or less, so they take a good short cut.

but my point still , it all depends on their social and financial situation and what  they can afford,

thank you very much and best regards : )

Heï Davina !
I read both of your answers to me and Ocean. You seem to be a very "boily" personality , no ?
I can understand it because I'm too, My own way. I like it in fact people full of energy and ... clever - smart at least. What I felt very first time is that your analyse of the situation was correct. And more, you shorten it sumarise it in a good way too. So, as Montaigne said it "if you can't change the world, change your own mind" - I mean the situation is as you described it. You said at the end of your post : some who are using smarter ways (sometimes tricky ways) to achieve their settlement are the winner at the end. It's a question of personal ethic but I try to make you understand that in this country it could be first a success, then a "way-out" because you don't respect their ethic , culture call it as yu want and they can be "killers" those scandinavains, you know ? much more  than americans are. The preservation of their rules, the way they live usually is very very important. Notions of tighten circles in which they grow up is really important. You can't enter their society so easy as in a lot of countries ( south-am , south european countries africa etc...) - It's closed up very fermly - They just let you sit on their side, they smile and talk ; No more, with always some kind of a natural distance this coming from the religious background of their culture which is a mix of paganism which last very long time and a rigorist evangelist practice. Simplicy, never arrogant, never show your worth etc... etc... I got Pb when I restored furnitures for some antique dealers : they always said "No, no! don't do it as french are used to do it : it's too much shiny, too much beautiful,in a word : too much arrogant ! " for me it was completely silly : how can you repair a very nice and worthy furniture ... badly ? I don't know how to manage this.But - as I was furious ! - at the end, every time they said, "yes, maybe for that kind of furnitures - french manner made by norvegian and very expensive one - maybe, we are not right, maybe we simply loose the right way to do it since XVIII° c.". I was crashed down every time ! I loose my temper and you can't do "fransk polering" ( french varnish with a pad) in such conditions. Need to feel absolutly "zen" ! If not : you'll fail.
I'll answer in a short time to your new several questions following my 1° post and try to explain my "position" in a better way. But first a few remarks about Norway and scandinavian countries in general :
1) They are a little country ( big surface but little amount of residents) - was very poor til very recent period. They were under domination of Dane then swedish for centuries therefore is the origine of latent racism  between each national citizenship. Suddenly they became very very rich (oil) and took a place on international scene with no comparison with their real weight and recent history - Then begun endless migration to their country - Old times, most of Normenner emigrate for centuries - and it brought Pb ! because people had difficulties to integrate their culture and they had to face with people comming from allover the world - In fact, basically they're stoken between 2 things : "being nice people helping others" (religious commitment) and " we need to confort our culture " and "we can't accept to solve alone the misery of the rest of the world" we're doing our best - if you look carefully to the immigration to norway, (stats by nationality and motives of settlement) since 40 y. you'll understand a lot of things. And if you "swim" among strangers ( refugees, people taking profit of "socialsjuren" and assistance of wellfare state) in these countries as I did it ...you'll understand really their position which is " Now, let 's have less immigration, please - Those who can survive and get through the hinder Ok - others have to move back to their country" I heard this everywhere ( by professionals who said to me "you'll never succeed in settling" in such a way that I heard "We are strong and we'll stop you !" - or, from state officials and clerks : same words : "go back, please : we won't do anything for you !" - and i saw a lot of people in deep depression before they decided to move back with a lot of debts, too. And most of the people ( migrants) I met both in norway and sweden were in accordance with me considering that the turnover of migrant trying to settle was gorgeous - no statistics about the Pb - and 95% of them failed and went back in very bad condition, but ... they spent their money in here ! . Unless they were refugees supported by wellfare state ( just given some money 7 - 800 € a month as some eastern friends I had, coming from Irak, Kurdistan etc...) - But spanish, italian, and others countries had absolutly nothing. Neither social security cover in case of emergency ! - Migration is a very hard and a very serious affair. Suffering - sometimes starving ; even criminality for some guys perfectly "honest" in fact but who have last no other choice at the end ; I saw some ...! -  is at the corner of the street. You can beleive me !
I made an answer about "violence & social Pb in Norway" on a very recent forum Christine begun and I'm trying to explain a few things about immigration there. Too short but it was just a contribution. I have a lot to discuss on this subject in fact... Well i'll send you this now and do my answer to your post later. Best regards to you Davina.

Ocean127 wrote:

Hey Davina

Thank you for the reply.

I agree with the concept you are trying to explain,

why it is not applicable for me, hmmm

Because I do not have a problem to find a job,  there are few of me , not being brilliant or any thing, just working within a major that probably others did not know about or were not interested in,

in Europe, there are only 5, 6 persons of my level, that's why I did not have to learn Norwegian after 3 years of living in Bergen, and that's why I am not worried about a position, I will find one some where in the planet , the challenge can be ( how good is the position)

...

But I totally agree with your view and the points you focused on,

It is really hard to communicate and socialize in Norway, I have a lot to say about this issue , but may be in some other chance so I do not distract the topic
...

For those who are seeking new life in Norway, in addition to the language which I think it is a high priority, they should get at least familiarization,

they can learn and understand what I have learned in 3 years,. within 3 months ! or less, so they take a good short cut.

but my point still , it all depends on their social and financial situation and what  they can afford,

thank you very much and best regards : )

Heya Ocean. I hope you had a nice weekend! Thanks so much for your very thoughtful reply and the insight it provides.

why it is not applicable for me, hmmm

Because I do not have a problem to find a job,  there are few of me , not being brilliant or any thing, just working within a major that probably others did not know about or were not interested in,

in Europe, there are only 5, 6 persons of my level, that's why I did not have to learn Norwegian after 3 years of living in Bergen, and that's why I am not worried about a position, I will find one some where in the planet , the challenge can be ( how good is the position)

Ah, I see you. I know exactly what you mean. My neighbour works as a Marine Soil Biologist or something like that (very highly specialized) and he gets work easily because they're so few people in this field. The only downside he faces, if he happens to be out of a job, is that once most positions are filled you generally have to wait for the (on average) 3 yr cycle in which people change jobs so a position opens up again. So yeah, I get it and you're right, the system I'm researching wouldn't necessarily be targeted at highly specialized professionals like you ... at least not in the first instance!

It is really hard to communicate and socialize in Norway, I have a lot to say about this issue , but may be in some other chance so I do not distract the topic

Actually, you won't be going off topic at all. I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts on the issue so please share!

Thanks a lot!

Foster-Ehlé J-Ch wrote:

Heï Davina !
I read both of your answers to me and Ocean. You seem to be a very "boily" personality , no ?
I can understand it because I'm too, My own way. I like it in fact people full of energy and ... clever - smart at least. What I felt very first time is that your analyse of the situation was correct. And more, you shorten it sumarise it in a good way too. So, as Montaigne said it "if you can't change the world, change your own mind" - I mean the situation is as you described it. You said at the end of your post : some who are using smarter ways (sometimes tricky ways) to achieve their settlement are the winner at the end. It's a question of personal ethic but I try to make you understand that in this country it could be first a success, then a "way-out" because you don't respect their ethic , culture call it as yu want and they can be "killers" those scandinavains, you know ? much more  than americans are. The preservation of their rules, the way they live usually is very very important. Notions of tighten circles in which they grow up is really important. You can't enter their society so easy as in a lot of countries ( south-am , south european countries africa etc...) - It's closed up very fermly - They just let you sit on their side, they smile and talk ; No more, with always some kind of a natural distance this coming from the religious background of their culture which is a mix of paganism which last very long time and a rigorist evangelist practice. Simplicy, never arrogant, never show your worth etc... etc... I got Pb when I restored furnitures for some antique dealers : they always said "No, no! don't do it as french are used to do it : it's too much shiny, too much beautiful,in a word : too much arrogant ! " for me it was completely silly : how can you repair a very nice and worthy furniture ... badly ? I don't know how to manage this.But - as I was furious ! - at the end, every time they said, "yes, maybe for that kind of furnitures - french manner made by norvegian and very expensive one - maybe, we are not right, maybe we simply loose the right way to do it since XVIII° c.". I was crashed down every time ! I loose my temper and you can't do "fransk polering" ( french varnish with a pad) in such conditions. Need to feel absolutly "zen" ! If not : you'll fail.
I'll answer in a short time to your new several questions following my 1° post and try to explain my "position" in a better way. But first a few remarks about Norway and scandinavian countries in general :
1) They are a little country ( big surface but little amount of residents) - was very poor til very recent period. They were under domination of Dane then swedish for centuries therefore is the origine of latent racism  between each national citizenship. Suddenly they became very very rich (oil) and took a place on international scene with no comparison with their real weight and recent history - Then begun endless migration to their country - Old times, most of Normenner emigrate for centuries - and it brought Pb ! because people had difficulties to integrate their culture and they had to face with people comming from allover the world - In fact, basically they're stoken between 2 things : "being nice people helping others" (religious commitment) and " we need to confort our culture " and "we can't accept to solve alone the misery of the rest of the world" we're doing our best - if you look carefully to the immigration to norway, (stats by nationality and motives of settlement) since 40 y. you'll understand a lot of things. And if you "swim" among strangers ( refugees, people taking profit of "socialsjuren" and assistance of wellfare state) in these countries as I did it ...you'll understand really their position which is " Now, let 's have less immigration, please - Those who can survive and get through the hinder Ok - others have to move back to their country" I heard this everywhere ( by professionals who said to me "you'll never succeed in settling" in such a way that I heard "We are strong and we'll stop you !" - or, from state officials and clerks : same words : "go back, please : we won't do anything for you !" - and i saw a lot of people in deep depression before they decided to move back with a lot of debts, too. And most of the people ( migrants) I met both in norway and sweden were in accordance with me considering that the turnover of migrant trying to settle was gorgeous - no statistics about the Pb - and 95% of them failed and went back in very bad condition, but ... they spent their money in here ! . Unless they were refugees supported by wellfare state ( just given some money 7 - 800 € a month as some eastern friends I had, coming from Irak, Kurdistan etc...) - But spanish, italian, and others countries had absolutly nothing. Neither social security cover in case of emergency ! - Migration is a very hard and a very serious affair. Suffering - sometimes starving ; even criminality for some guys perfectly "honest" in fact but who have last no other choice at the end ; I saw some ...! -  is at the corner of the street. You can beleive me !
I made an answer about "violence & social Pb in Norway" on a very recent forum Christine begun and I'm trying to explain a few things about immigration there. Too short but it was just a contribution. I have a lot to discuss on this subject in fact... Well i'll send you this now and do my answer to your post later. Best regards to you Davina.

Hey Foster,

I hope you had a great weekend. Wow, some great insights here! A lot of which is the reason I'm researching this topic so thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I'd love to hear your opinions on the questions I asked in reply to your first post as well. Looking forward to reading more from you! Thanks again.

Hello Davina !
I hope w.e was sunny enough in Norway ! For us (middle of France) , it's becomin' less hot ... fuckin' sahara hot windy storm ! I was exhausted last week. Was condemned , sentenced to read a lot of things on websites, hours and days long. Couldn't work really...Some kind of "ramadan" ( muslim religious celebration period) : could work only during the night !
And first, I tried to explore more carefully the Xpat blogs & forums as I am a newbie who did everything in a rush before I understood how I can use it. I engage you to do same because reading some blogs I found things among them that could be helpfull for you. What I called the "mumur" of websites before.  In Xpat or other sites...
I mean it will lead you to a best understanding of their manners , those "normenner". I took profit of my reading otherwise I already spent  journeys over there.
About the topic " would you pay ..." I'll try to write back to you an full & precise answer on the last few specific points you mentioned in your ast post. I need to prepare it "properly" because you're discussing almost on every word - let me take my breath and I'll try to make it correctly.
So long Davina.

IMO the biggest issues people face trying to get jobs here are:
-language
-credentials that aren't recognized/transferrable
-visas

these aren't things a service could really help get around, and therefore it'd be hard to prove the worth of paying for something that simply cannot solve these three big issues. While it's true that many people are lacking in network and knowledge of cultural practices here, IMO the size of network such a service would have to have might be impossible to achieve. Each industry has its own special network- how could one company manage to be a catch-all? I would rather join a special interest club (such as the AWC Oslo, which I'm a member of) that has a variety of members and a cheap to free admission as a way to build a network.

ECS wrote:

IMO the biggest issues people face trying to get jobs here are:
-language
-credentials that aren't recognized/transferrable
-visas

these aren't things a service could really help get around, and therefore it'd be hard to prove the worth of paying for something that simply cannot solve these three big issues. While it's true that many people are lacking in network and knowledge of cultural practices here, IMO the size of network such a service would have to have might be impossible to achieve. Each industry has its own special network- how could one company manage to be a catch-all? I would rather join a special interest club (such as the AWC Oslo, which I'm a member of) that has a variety of members and a cheap to free admission as a way to build a network.

Many thanks, ECS, for your input. Language and visas are relatively easy to get around, with good foresight & planning. The long wait time to get your qualifications verified, esp if you come from outside the EU might be a hassle, but perhaps mainly for those in the health sector? Usually with business professionals verification is done via background checks, which are often concluded within a couple weeks (some even while you've already started working). And this is IF it's important to the employer ... many employers are still satisfied with you just showing your degree, esp when you come with years of experience.

Also the aim is not to be a 'catch all', but to help the participants build networks in a few specific industries in which Norway needs added labour force.

I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room here. Norwegians do not like to hire non-Norwegians and I for one dont blame them, why hire an outsider when there is plenty of local talent, especially in today's market. I really cannot see the product you are offering working, I think it would just give false hope to people and rip them off if Im brutally honest.

Im lucky as I was asked to move to Norway, if I was made redundant now I doubt Id get another job in Norway so easily and thats with an extensive network.

Take of thas as you will. I do admire your entrepreneurial attitude though.

Davina D wrote:

Many thanks, ECS, for your input. Language and visas are relatively easy to get around, with good foresight & planning. The long wait time to get your qualifications verified, esp if you come from outside the EU might be a hassle, but perhaps mainly for those in the health sector? Usually with business professionals verification is done via background checks, which are often concluded within a couple weeks (some even while you've already started working). And this is IF it's important to the employer ... many employers are still satisfied with you just showing your degree, esp when you come with years of experience.

Language is clearly not "easy to get around" based on the number of people who're posting asking about jobs for people who don't speak Norwegian. As for qualifications, it's not just the health sector as this does appear to me to be a country that prizes certifications of all sorts, not all of which are international. For example, I've got a software testing certification that is used in Norway but nobody in America seems to have heard of. Legal professions, engineering, and even some degrees are not recognized in Norway but are elsewhere. I've got a friend with a master's degree from the USA that Norway doesn't recognize because she didn't have to write a thesis for it. The healthcare professionals are getting a lot of press these days but it's definitely a problem in other areas.

and I think if visas were easy to get around, there wouldn't be so many threads about people waiting for their visas I've heard a lot about this in other expats-in-Norway groups and forums. Even if you have an employer willing to hire you, UDI may still reject your work visa application.

trigger_andy wrote:

I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room here. Norwegians do not like to hire non-Norwegians and I for one dont blame them, why hire an outsider when there is plenty of local talent, especially in today's market. I really cannot see the product you are offering working, I think it would just give false hope to people and rip them off if Im brutally honest.

Im lucky as I was asked to move to Norway, if I was made redundant now I doubt Id get another job in Norway so easily and thats with an extensive network.

Take of thas as you will. I do admire your entrepreneurial attitude though.

Thank you for your input, Trigger Andy. Appreciate your brutal honesty. Just to make one thing clear, this is more of a research project that I'm doing in collaboration with the career services at the university than a real entrepreneurial endeavour.

I'd also like to point out just for your information that there are many paid career advisory services out there that seem to be adding value to their customers so they work for somebody. Not everyone goes into business to scam people.

I find it very intriguing that you don't think you'd find another job even with an extensive network. I do agree that many Norwegians' view of foreigners can be rather biased and misinformed, but in your opinion is there no way to get around this prejudice even though you condone it?

In my personal experience I find Norwegians to be quite receptive once you demystify yourself to them. It's not that you're ever going to stop being a foreigner in their eyes, but once they see you as a human being and not just a dirty foreigner, they'll let you in, no? Agree or disagree? I'd love to hear your opinion.

Im not saying your selling a scam, just that I think that charging people for something I feel will not work, has no guaranteed success and in today's market where there is less and less jobs to be had would result in paying for false hope. Maybe if they only paid for your service if they got a job through it? Then I think it would be fair.

I work in the Oil and Gas Service Industry, there is a lot of fear in the market just now, there is pay off's left right and center. If I was unfortunate enough to be paid off I really think I would struggle to find a new job. I applied for a lot of jobs in my line of work 2 years ago when finn was bursting at the seams with jobs, and I only had one reply. I believe thats because Im from the UK, even though I live here and own a house here.

Yes, I completely condone it, Im not gonna sit here and feel like poor old me because Norwegians want to hire Norwegians first. Why should they not be allowed to look after their own first? I wish the UK would have the same attitude.

I love Norwegians, they are very friendly and trustworthy. I personally have never felt the standoffishness many portray them to be. Maybe because coming from Scotland we have a similar attitude? People coming from more welcoming countries tend to see it more I think? I have friends from Greece who live near me and they struggle a bit, I find there openness and their constant need for touching and holding a bit weird but thats what makes the word a brighter place.

I have a few Norwegian friends, good friends I mean. Norwegians who I could borrow a few thousand nok off of no questions asked and Id do the same in return. I also have many work mates I go drinking with outside of working hours. I speak with all my neighbors, BBQ and drink with them, something I never did in the UK.

ECS wrote:

Davina D wrote:

Many thanks, ECS, for your input. Language and visas are relatively easy to get around, with good foresight & planning. The long wait time to get your qualifications verified, esp if you come from outside the EU might be a hassle, but perhaps mainly for those in the health sector? Usually with business professionals verification is done via background checks, which are often concluded within a couple weeks (some even while you've already started working). And this is IF it's important to the employer ... many employers are still satisfied with you just showing your degree, esp when you come with years of experience.

Language is clearly not "easy to get around" based on the number of people who're posting asking about jobs for people who don't speak Norwegian. As for qualifications, it's not just the health sector as this does appear to me to be a country that prizes certifications of all sorts, not all of which are international. For example, I've got a software testing certification that is used in Norway but nobody in America seems to have heard of. Legal professions, engineering, and even some degrees are not recognized in Norway but are elsewhere. I've got a friend with a master's degree from the USA that Norway doesn't recognize because she didn't have to write a thesis for it. The healthcare professionals are getting a lot of press these days but it's definitely a problem in other areas.

and I think if visas were easy to get around, there wouldn't be so many threads about people waiting for their visas I've heard a lot about this in other expats-in-Norway groups and forums. Even if you have an employer willing to hire you, UDI may still reject your work visa application.

Hi ECE, great insights. You're approaching this issue from an angle I didn't think about. Thank you!   Just to clarify a few things, I'm not saying that language isn't a big issue. It is. I think I said it in one of the posts above that if you expatriate to another country it is one's duty to learn the language. We can't feel entitled to have anyone speak English to us when we live in Japan or Germany or Norway. So learning the language is very important. What I meant when I said that 'language can be easy to get around' is that if you're lucky you can still find a job even if you don't speak Norwegian and learn as you go. I've gotten jobs when I couldn't speak Norwegian and was taking Norwegian lessons in the evenings after work. So it can and does happen, not to all but many.

Qualification, the general caveat is that foreigners should have an equivalent of a Master or Bachelor to Masters and Bachs in Norway. Since Norwegian Masters require that you write a thesis it's not surprising to me that they didn't accept the degree of your friend who didn't write a thesis. Other degrees like a law degree might not be accepted depending on where you come from or they may ask you to take additional courses in Norwegian law for a year before approving you. I have a few doctor friends who've gone through this process. I do agree with you that the verification process can be challenging for some professions, esp when you're from a country outside the EU or the West. This is absolutely something to think about.

I have to say I haven't checked all the forums yet so I didn't know many people had to deal with long wait times. That's good to know. Perhaps UDI have drastically changed their policies or are overwhelmed with work. What kind of permit are most people waiting on? I'm aware that skilled workers, as long as all your papers are straightforward & in order, can get their visas pretty quickly through SUA - Section for Skilled Foreign Workers I think it's called. It takes anywhere from 2 wks - 3 mths to process work permits through SUA. I got my work permit after only 3 weeks while another friend of mine from the US got his after little over a week and most people I know seem to get their work permits within 3 mths. I have never come across anyone who was rejected for their work permit. I've lived here for many years & have crossed paths with many many expats in that time. That is not to say it doesn't happen, mind you, but I think something must have to be really wrong or suspicious about your application for it to be rejected. I know that other types of permits can take several months and even up to a year or more to process, however.

Really appreciate your input! Thank you very much once again!

trigger_andy wrote:

Im not saying your selling a scam, just that I think that charging people for something I feel will not work, has no guaranteed success and in today's market where there is less and less jobs to be had would result in paying for false hope. Maybe if they only paid for your service if they got a job through it? Then I think it would be fair.

I work in the Oil and Gas Service Industry, there is a lot of fear in the market just now, there is pay off's left right and center. If I was unfortunate enough to be paid off I really think I would struggle to find a new job. I applied for a lot of jobs in my line of work 2 years ago when finn was bursting at the seams with jobs, and I only had one reply. I believe thats because Im from the UK, even though I live here and own a house here.

Yes, I completely condone it, Im not gonna sit here and feel like poor old me because Norwegians want to hire Norwegians first. Why should they not be allowed to look after their own first? I wish the UK would have the same attitude.

I love Norwegians, they are very friendly and trustworthy. I personally have never felt the standoffishness many portray them to be. Maybe because coming from Scotland we have a similar attitude? People coming from more welcoming countries tend to see it more I think? I have friends from Greece who live near me and they struggle a bit, I find there openness and their constant need for touching and holding a bit weird but thats what makes the word a brighter place.

I have a few Norwegian friends, good friends I mean. Norwegians who I could borrow a few thousand nok off of no questions asked and Id do the same in return. I also have many work mates I go drinking with outside of working hours. I speak with all my neighbors, BBQ and drink with them, something I never did in the UK.

Very interesting perspective you have there, Andy. Thank you for sharing!

Whoops, posted too quickly.

I just wanted to add that there's risk involved in everything we do in life. Paid career services may not work for everyone, but it can & does work for some people -- esp when said service is tailored toward the customer's needs. One of the reasons why some of these services (both the paid and non-paid ones for eg NAV courses) have disappointing results is because they keep doing the same things that don't work for the majority of people. That's why the thought of a different approach is so tempting to think about.

Hello again ,Davina

I wrote a detailed reply answering your previous question, but then I changed my mind as the details will not help and may offend some one, I will just mention a brief summary.

practically in Norway, if you are a foreigner , ICE will never melt between you and Norwegians or locals.

Norway is a place to work, not to (Live)

Work opportunities depend very much on how foreigner you are, !!

Your name , background, appearance, language skills , will usually come before your skills, that's why we see plenty of highly qualified and educated persons struggling to get a job as a taxi driver or a cleaner,

One important thing here, (IF) you got a job there will be no discrimination, I am earning more than locals, and my company treats me very well from a professional side.  there are strong regulations control the relation between employers and employees which makes work environment one of the best.

to live in Norway you have to have your own social life, other than that you will consider moving from Norway as me at the moment : ),

of course I respect this small calm country and I understand why the people are very conservative towards expats, and foreigners,

however I am considering taking other opportunities in a different country  ,It is not always up to work, life should be a balancing act.

Best regards,

Well I do not agree with your statement regarding Norwegians at all. I find them very friendly and there is generally no ice between ex-pats and Norwegians. There is no obligation on the Norwegians part to like you, if they think your an Arse Hole you'll always be regarded as one. Maybe you need to change and not them?

I have plenty of Norwegian friends, I get invited out all the time and have spent the night many a time.

I have a Greek friend who lives close to me and he has even more Norwegian friends than me.

I guess being Whiter that sour cream helps as well? But again, there is no obligation for Norwegians to make friends with outsiders, its the outsiders obligation to integrate with Norwegians.

May be you are correct trigger_andy

because one of us could be an exception either me or you,

probably it is just me who think Norwegian society is  conservative towards foreigners, and Norway is a place to work, not to live.
,,,

But does this explain physical attack in Bergen sentrum couple of weeks ago! from young guys who seemed to be drunk or something, ! people who did not even know me ! and that was in a very normal place to be at a normal time !

does it explain when the biggest news paper in Bergen wanted to make an interview with skilled foreigners, my company recommended  me, because it supposed to be a positive report about skilled foreigners in Norway, I talked to the reporter who did not seem to be  interested in my story, just a specialist in a major, received work offer from Norway, decided to accept, simple

one other colleague was unlucky he talked about losing his previous job in Portugal then decided to move to Norway with his family,

couple of days after , the news paper head was ( engineers flood in Norway), then they published my colleague story, Poor (X)  full name !, who came to Norway to save his miserable life !!, glad that they did not mention me at all hehe,

then the online comments under the article were like:

Those bloody foreigners who take our money, our jobs, and make life worse,

the article was offensive for no reason especially at that time Norway was lacking 16000 engineers in different sectors, but still 99% of the comments were the same. !

I know it is not personal but there is an important concept: we (the expats living in Norway) are mostly here to participate in the success of the Norwegian economy, and for the good of the country and the people, we give our time, effort, skills and even life for this goal, and we expect some thing in return, so it should be a win-win situation, !

Just hope every one understands this concept, then things will be  better : ), at least for me (as an exception)



Best regards,

Thanks for what you've just said Ocean ! (in your last post).
Far away from commonplace remarks, tritenesses and banalities.

Clever post I mean - avoïd angryness but "realistic". Fine...
Especially when you said "that was in a very normal place at very normal time".

I could tell stories same "mood" - very sad one... in contradiction with what is generally admitted and told everywhere in scandinavia.

Was just continuing reading posts on this topic, but didn't want to participate anymore ...than that.

But I'll have a remark : talking about "win/win" relation on immigration subject isn't it a little bit naïve ?

Most of relations are based on relation of power. Not empowerful , nuance ! (see PNL)
Enpowerful relations are the exception, my dear ! -
endless Regrets ! so many regrets...Humanity isn't on the right route.

Compassion for what happened to you !
I understand better why you said in previous post... "I'm thinking about moving ..  in search of another oppostunity, elsewhere".

Ocean127 wrote:

Hello again ,Davina

I wrote a detailed reply answering your previous question, but then I changed my mind as the details will not help and may offend some one, I will just mention a brief summary.

practically in Norway, if you are a foreigner , ICE will never melt between you and Norwegians or locals.

Norway is a place to work, not to (Live)

Work opportunities depend very much on how foreigner you are, !!

Your name , background, appearance, language skills , will usually come before your skills, that's why we see plenty of highly qualified and educated persons struggling to get a job as a taxi driver or a cleaner,

One important thing here, (IF) you got a job there will be no discrimination, I am earning more than locals, and my company treats me very well from a professional side.  there are strong regulations control the relation between employers and employees which makes work environment one of the best.

to live in Norway you have to have your own social life, other than that you will consider moving from Norway as me at the moment : ),

of course I respect this small calm country and I understand why the people are very conservative towards expats, and foreigners,

however I am considering taking other opportunities in a different country  ,It is not always up to work, life should be a balancing act.

Best regards,

Ocean, thank you so much for this! VERY insightful and I know exactly what you mean. There is a lot of truth in what you said. Thank you for elaborating and sharing your experience!

Thanks again Andy and Foster for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated!

You're wellcome Davina  -

Sometimes it's difficult - and long  too ! - to explain on the right way how to manage a topic. a cultural way of "local life". Well, it's a challenge to express your feelings and views on a subject.

You need to be moderate, by yourself . And sometimes you are "moderated".!
Second difficulty for me : I didn't use english for years - and i'm not as fluent as I used to be.
Things are getting and going slowier than it used to go.
i'm working to remedy to this ... as I'm re-learning German to be fluent again. and at the same time learning bokmal. I'm still quite good in French ! ... Lucky guy !

As you know it, efficiency is based on research of truths and authenticity.
As "Ocean" did it in a clever way.
Not agressiv , with some angerness - who wouldn't feel so ?- but fair and right "on the rock" (the basic point of the topic).

Best regards.
Jean-Charles

Thx Davina , u w


thx Foster-Ehlé J-Ch, Just hopes, there is no perfection including ourselves of course.

Heî, Ocean !
Thanks for reply.

Well... I was just talking in a philosophical way. Psychological too. Two spheres, scopes of "sciences" (human  one) I had interest with. In fact, Long time ago...

I am listening to a radio all-day-long, on which a french philosoph of my generation and close to my own "mood"- mind and spirit ( very close ) is trying to re-assure directions to a lot of people.

Hard job ! But nice one, even if done just for a few, a minority in search of some "reasonnable" reasons to live. As you said it " life may be a balancing way". There's no perfection, for sure but I DO believe we  need to modelate, to carve all life long our fate... and build a strong ethic for ourselves. There are success and ... failures, checks and defeats on the road. We can't complain : that's salt of our life.
We (compared to previous generations) are expecting too much from our so-called "needs and dreams". We should come back to more simple, frugal, and altruist behaviours. Right the opposite of what is encouraged nowadays, and the practise of the majority.of our contemporaries ( ?- people of this period).
Too much "always in the rush"... unsatisfyed, frustated, angry, impatient... so sensible to any so-called "discrimination" (sometimes imaginative one).

Discribing / criticising and "spelling" our nowadays way of life and our "faults", bad habbits and failings, he's nevertheless giving a positive point of view. Courageous one , at least !

Coming back to this topic ... I shared most of your views and opinions ( being and staying always a stranger when you're abroad "Ice will never melt" between you and Normenner / what happened with T.v and journalists interviews : Typical ! caricatural but so true  / OSV ...)

P.s : what happened to you - I complained with - happened to me too but worst than what you in a few words described for yourself. I was totally naked - everything stolen-, left with no mean at all and no possibility of escaping the country. No help from any "institution". Then, I worked without eating (days-long) and sleeping place ( in winter ...) - then, - bad meeting ! - I was purchased by the Mid-east mob (Irakis and egyptians) without any reason ! I became a target in the streets and had to hid myself ... fights, sequestration & attempt of murder (registred at police station), escape again, then purchased again ( still no assistance at all from police, neither hospital emergency : I was badly injured, neither socialsjuren (Can you believe it ?! ... and they had to ! as I'm a member of CEE) , My own embassy did nothing too - I regretted at this moment I never took the american citizenship - I could have because of my father, grand-parents - cause I worked during 3 years, in the american embassy in France and had several times to manage such problems that occured to american citizens and take care of them : i know how efficient they are ! they'll never let / drop someone without doing something)

And ..finally I succeed to escape ! and come back here a few months after. Just a miracle ...
Nobody could just listen to what I said when I was back. It was too hard and unbelievable for my relatives.
Seems as if I was suddenly dropped in a very bad movy story. It was ... for sure. My relatives couldn't believe I wasn't "guilty"... in a way, for some reason. It was just a concatenation of events.
An endless slip, a dive on a soapy washboard without any reason.
But I saw for some others worste situations than mine.

Anyhow I will come back ... and try to keep cool and with no angryness against people in general or particularly against those who didn't even lift a thunder to help me and ... especially those who had legally to do it !!!. Now, I know where are the "walls" of indifference, hypocrisy... and How people can transform themselves into  sharks; or as the old tag / common saying , says it : "wolves among wolves". Sometimes ! not always, for sure. i saw very nice guys too.
I'll stay a nice guy ... cause I am a lucky guy : I have a very strong ethic and a frame of ferm values I can rest on... whatever may happen.

That's what i said to Davina about paying someone to get a job. I think ECS was right : just do networking at AWC or something like this. And don't wait for too much... You'll always be a foreigner.
But, some are - has you, Ocean noticed it - much more "lucky" than others ( name, citizenship, languages,level of education, ... appearence !!! OSV ...).

However, "Better be dead than bending our knees" was used to say my gran'ma'...You know Irish !? or my other Oma "they can cut our head, we'll never bend our knees". (german one this one).

Foster-Ehlé J-Ch !

I am trying to convince my self that you are kidding, although your tone does not seem like that !

this is too much !!!

I have never been into serious troubles in Norway or any other country in the world, It s just (boring) for me,

I have not experienced any serious issues, except for a  bunch of drunk guys tried to have a random fight, and I avoided it that was the only time

Yes I am considering current work offers in some other countries but this is mainly  because I feel it is ( Cold ) here in Norway and I do not mean the weather of course. especially I am living all by my self, so I am free like a bird : )

Excuse me it might be a silly question, but why did you let it go that bad, decision timing is very important,  we should be kind of predictive

but after all , glad that things are better now, and sorry to hear about your experiment, hope you came over that already

best regards