Expat working

if you follow the laws, you will need to find a PT company willing to sponsor your work permit. Working without work permit means you do it illegal and taking the risk to be fined up to Rp 500.000.000 and 5 years prison if get caught.

Where do I find a company that will sponsor  Do many company's sponsor expats?

There are very strict requirements for companies if they intend to apply for a work permit at the Ministry of Manpower. They will only have a chance if the foreign expat is specialized in certain fields, have skills what a local don't have.

What is your work background, your work experience and educational background ?

Iv just recently finished my diploma in nursing (Enrolled nurse) in Australia. So I'm hoping to get some work within the health care system.

Thanks for the information.

Aside that getting a work permit as a nurse is close to zero, even though you have a diploma (that's anyway one of the requirements to provide) you also will have to proof that you have 5 years work experience in that specific field you intend to work.

Tom (Happyhour) is totally correct.  It is virtually impossible for a foreigner to work for compensation in the health care field in Indonesia.  Yes, you might run into an Australian nurse or doctor from time to time "working" over here, but their work is completely on a volunteer basis, or they are doing part of their "residency" here in Indonesia.

Does the BIMC in kuta take volunteers? I would be willing to volunteer, doesn't need to be paid work.

Do you need a specific visa to volunteer?

Thanks for all your help. Very helpful.

I believe BIMC does in fact have some volunteer western nurses on its staff from time to time.  You might also consider the international wing at Bali's main hospital, RS Sanglah in Denpasar.  Another one to consider is the new (and impressive) Bali Royal Hospital located in the upscale Renon district of Denpasar. 

No, there is no special visa requirement for volunteer work in Indonesia.  Your best bet is to come with a 60 day visit visa arranged in advance at any of the Indonesian consulates or the Indonesian embassy in Australia.  That visa can be renewed up to four times here in Bali at immigration, each renewal being good for an additional 30 days...total stay before having to leave being 180 days.  At that point, should you wish to continue, you could get your KITAS (temporary residence) visa.

If you are serious about doing this, then by all means, kudos to you...but, you might consider learning as much bahasa Indonesia before coming over to Bali. 

Good luck...and selamat!   

Sorry Roy but I see it differently. The visa which will be given to you for 1 month (be it a VoA, a VKSB or any type of Visa Kunjungan) won't allow you ANY work, paid or unpaid.

I would be very careful. It's known that many people are bypassing the law and work on visas given for non working purposes.

There are heavy fines if get caught misusing the visa.

There are some exceptions if there is a bilateral agreement between the institution here where you intend to volunteer and the counter part in your country.

Trust me Tom, I've been at this a long, long time and no matter if on a VOA, 60 day visit visa, KITAS, retirement KITAS, KITAP or whatever, volunteer work with no pay or compensation at qualified Yayasans, NGOs, medical facilities and schools is never a problem...at least here in Bali anyway.

As hard as it might be to imagine some times, the fact is the folks at immigration do have some common sense.   

I get the idea you're both right.
Strictly, any work is illegal on those visas, but immigration have been known to turn a blind eye from time to time.
However, the law is clear, so I must advise not working at all on these visas.
It only takes one official to be upset for any reason, and you're messed up.

"However, the law is clear, so I must advise not working at all on these visas."

It isn't the law that matters here...rather it's how it's regulated.

There are plenty of examples of this here in Indonesia.  For example, according to the anti pornography law, it is not allowed to wear bikini swim wear even at the beach.  Have you noted any tourists (or locals) in Bali arrested for wearing bikinis? 

Under that same law it is also forbidden to paint nude pictures of women…yet the very best Indonesian artists of nudes are Muslim, and they mostly reside in Java.  None of them have been arrested either.

Laws in Indonesia are purposely written in a vague manner which is subject to interpretation by the regulatory bodies. 

If you ever hear of anyone being arrested or running afoul of immigration because they are doing volunteer work as I described earlier, please let me know because that will be the first time this has happened. 

Nothing personal here Fred, but don't you think it somewhat disingenuous to advise one expat on a string about “free lance teaching” (for illegal compensation) to keep "a low profile" while on this string advising another expat to avoid volunteering? 

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

Roy, if it would be really the case as you said then foreigners can just come here on any visa and claim they just volunteer (even unpaid) basically wherever there is some organization or institution looking for some work force.

So many new regulations are implemented not only by the DirGen also Ministry of Manpower, they make it so hard now for companies/expats to get legal work permits.

Also they (Immigration) increased their random checks in offices (at least in Jakarta) checking companies documents as well as the foreigner working there.

"Roy, if it would be really the case as you said then foreigners can just come here on any visa and claim they just volunteer (even unpaid) basically wherever there is some organization or institution looking for some work force."

Essentially, that is correct.  Licensed Yayasans, NGO's, hospitals and schools do not provide work permits for the foreigners who volunteer at their organizations, and in fact, they most often don't sponsor their visas either. 

Obviously these legitimate organizations are well known to local immigration authorities, and I assure you, here in Bali at any point in time there are hundreds of foreigners doing volunteer work in one area or another ranging from such disparate activities as saving the sea turtles to providing mattresses for impoverished old people.  None of these volunteers are on an IMTA as it would be an obvious waste of the Yayasan/NGO, school or hospital's money to bare that expense as a non profit entity.

Equally obvious (I hope) is that a foreigner cannot come to Bali and do volunteer work at their friend's business.

There are hundreds of foreign volunteers as you said, without work permit not even holding a sponsored visa and you are sure they don't break the law ?

OK, we all know on Bali a lot of things are different because it's a tourist spot and some of the organizations are well known to the local authorities. But again if this is all legal then everyone should be able to "volunteer" on any simple visa all over Indonesia, why should one go through all the strict regulations when applying a work and stay permit ?

The ones who should volunteer here (Yayasan, NGO etc) are the locals not a foreign tourist, where is the benefit for the locals if foreigners occupying that position ? Is the foreigner who volunteers for whatever institutions paying for his/her own food and drinks when "working" ? Most for sure don't they will get some Nasi and Aqua in between while the locals still have to buy for their own.

OK, Tom, let's take your last post one bit at a time.

“There are hundreds of foreign volunteers as you said, without work permit not even holding a sponsored visa and you are sure they don't break the law ?”

Absolutely 100% positive they are not breaking law, as the law is not regulated in the manner you assume it is. 

“But again if this is all legal then everyone should be able to "volunteer" on any simple visa all over Indonesia, why should one go through all the strict regulations when applying a work and stay permit?”

The purpose of work permits is to regulate the number of foreigners who work in jobs for compensation…compensation which an otherwise qualified Indonesian is not receiving.  If someone is coming to Indonesia to volunteer (as previously described), they will not be issued a work permit and they can come in on exactly the same visa as they would for a visit, or, as a tourist.  Conversely, if a foreign expat comes to Indonesia to take a paid position with a Yayasan or NGO then they will need an IMTA.  It's all rather simple…no money being paid, no work permit needed. 

“The ones who should volunteer here (Yayasan, NGO etc) are the locals not a foreign tourist.”

Seriously?  Why do you say that?  Would you have been inclined to run around Aceh after the devastating tsunami telling that to the hundreds upon hundreds of foreigners who flocked there to volunteer?  What objection could you or anyone have to a foreign tourist volunteering their time and knowledge for the benefit of Indonesia and its people? 

“…where is the benefit for the locals if foreigners occupying that position?”

Obviously the advantage to the locals if foreigners are doing this volunteer (unpaid) work is that they don't have to…and thus can concentrate more on feeding their families.  And, moreover, let's not discount the fact that many of these volunteers have expertise in certain areas that would be near impossible to find among the local population able, or willing, to volunteer.  And btw, there are plenty of Indonesians who volunteer their time at various Yayasans and NGOs as well.  Three members of my own family (native Indonesians) do exactly that…my wife being thus involved for some 16 years. 

“Is the foreigner who volunteers for whatever institutions paying for his/her own food and drinks when "working" ?”

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  But in any event, if room and board is provided by the Yayasan or NGO it is not considered compensation…rather it is considered hospitality.  And don't be misled by thinking that just any tourist can simply pop in to any Yayasan or NGO to volunteer in order to have their room and board covered.     

“Most for sure don't they will get some Nasi and Aqua in between while the locals still have to buy for their own.”

What makes you think that locals who do volunteer work have to necessarily buy their own food and drink?  With the three NGOs I am closest to, that is most definitely not the case. 

It seems to me that there isn't a whole lot of expat experience with volunteer work at various Yayasans and NGOs to be found here on this forum.  For anyone, be they Indonesian or foreign who has such experience, virtually everything I have written on this issue is well known. 

I'm sorry to say, but that is rather disappointing.

As others have commented on, for you to get a job as a "working nurse" is not possible UNLESS u were educated in one of the local nursing schools in Indonesia.  If you had post-grad degrees you could possibly find a job as a lecturer/teacher in one of the nursing schools but to have hands on activity with patients is not possible.  Foreign medical doctors have the same restrictions.

Nothing personal here Fred, but don't you think it somewhat disingenuous to advise one expat on a string about “free lance teaching” (for illegal compensation) to keep "a low profile" while on this string advising another expat to avoid volunteering?

No.
One is done informally in the home, or the odd visit to a school - the other is long term and/or full time, and at a place of business.
A long term expat, married to an Indonesian, and on a wife sponsored KITAP is very different to someone on a tourist visa working in a business.

Fred, either you're not reading what's been written, or you're purposely distorting my words. 

We are NOT talking about volunteering in a business, rather, we are talking about volunteering in a Yayasan, NGO, school or hospital. 

I trust you can see the difference.   

Roy, what about this article below ?


http://indonesiaexpat.biz/other/volunte … indonesia/

Individuals from all over the world come to Indonesia for a variety of reasons they arrive for the purpose of exploration, some for the purpose of employment, and oftentimes for the purpose of accompanying one's partner who has to relocate to the country.
Whatever the reason for the extended stay in Indonesia, some expatriates may find that there comes a point when they begin to feel comfortable and even at home in this complex and diverse society. This can become the driving force behind seeking a way to spend one's free time in a way that promotes social welfare and well-being of those who face hardship.
Of course, it is clear that volunteering in Indonesia is also an end in itself and that many individuals seek to offer their skills and knowledge by moving to this country as volunteers. The goal of this article is to provide information on legal considerations for those who intend to relocate to Indonesia as a volunteer and also for those who wish to supplement their experiences by volunteering.
As with any position held by a foreigner, anyone who wishes to volunteer in Indonesia needs to be aware of legal, especially visa-related, concerns.
First and foremost, it should be noted that, as mentioned in a previous article on employment of foreigners, the Government of Indonesia has a policy that promotes hiring locals over foreigners in order to decrease unemployment concerns. This applies to volunteers as well.
What this means it that you will not be able to arrive to Indonesia on a tourist visa and legally commit your time to anything that is work related, even if it is unpaid work. In fact, as a foreigner, you are not allowed to volunteer if you do not have a proper working visa. This is a very important immigration issue to consider when contemplating relocation.
In order to volunteer, you will have to obtain a KITAS. It should be noted that employers have to pay tax to the local Labor Department for employing foreigners. As a result, you must ensure that the organization that you wish to volunteer for is paying this tax because if not, then you will be volunteering illegally.
If you choose to volunteer illegally, note that you may face deportation and fines. The Government of Indonesia is strict on enforcing these rules.
It is sometimes suggested that you obtain a Visa Kunjungan Sosial Budaya (SosBud), since it allows for extended stay. It is understandable why it is seen as an option, because with Visa on Arrival, no type of work is allowed during your stay. In terms of the social/cultural visa, it is important that you communicate very openly with the organization that is suggesting that you apply for it in order to volunteer.  For example, East Bali Poverty Project may sponsor a social/cultural visa for volunteer purposes (http://eastbalipovertyproject.org/how-c … volunteer/).
You must obtain an appropriate visa prior to entering Indonesia.
If you are already residing in Indonesia and wish to commit to volunteer work, you must seek information from Indonesian authorities in regards to your own Visa Status (not your spouse's, if that is your case). You need to ask whether your Visa Status allows you to undertake unpaid work in Indonesia.

For those expatriates that have already obtained a working visa, it is a good idea to confirm that you are allowed to do unpaid work for another organization. Speak to your employer and consult with proper authorities, as well as the organization that you are interested in, prior to commencing with volunteering.

Overall, it is very important that you do not place volunteering in a different category from employment. It is work, albeit it is unpaid.

Clearly, there are some hurdles to overcome in order to volunteer in Indonesia. However, it is without a doubt an endeavor that is worth one's time. If you are able to secure a volunteer position in this country, you will enjoy a cultural experience of a lifetime. Similarly, if you are already living here and decide to volunteer, you will be exposed to a side of Indonesia you may never otherwise see.

What about it Tom?  Have you never found inaccurate information on the internet before?

This is totally wrong:

"In order to volunteer, you will have to obtain a KITAS. It should be noted that employers have to pay tax to the local Labor Department for employing foreigners. As a result, you must ensure that the organization that you wish to volunteer for is paying this tax because if not, then you will be volunteering illegally."

Yayasans and NGO's DO NOT pay taxes for volunteer workers...PERIOD.  That is absolute rubbish. 

But hey Tom, since you seem totally committed to this view, find me just ONE case where a foreigner who was volunteering at a licensed Yayasan or NGO ran afoul of immigration because of their activities as a volunteer. 

And something else that Fred said, which is also totally wrong:

" the other (volunteering) is long term and/or full time, and at a place of business."

Aside from the fact that a Yayasan or NGO is NOT a place of business, the actual fact is that most volunteer work done here (in Bali) is on a short term basis...measured in weeks up to a few months.  The only long term volunteer work is done by resident expats.

Roy, why shoul the information be inaccurate ?

This one is also inaccurate ?

http://www.us-passport-service-guide.co … ments.html

Quote:

Indonesia strictly enforces its immigration/visa requirements. Several Westerners, including Americans, have been jailed for visa violations and/or overstays. Violators may also be subject to substantial fines and/or deportation from Indonesia for immigration and visa violations. Immigration officials have also detained people for conducting business, academic, or other non-tourist activities while on tourist visa status. Volunteer work with local or international NGOs is not permitted on tourist visa status. Penalties for such immigration/visa violations may include a prison sentence of up to 5 years and a fine of Rupiah 25 million. Travelers are encouraged to contact an Indonesian consular office to determine the appropriate visa category before traveling to Indonesia. Please consult the Criminal Penalties section below for further information

Unquote:

The other way round, where is it stated that foreigners can volunteer (paid or unpaid) on VoA, Tourist Visa ?

"This one is also inaccurate ?"

Actually yes, there is an error in that as well.  It says, “Penalties for such immigration/visa violations may include a prison sentence of up to 5 years and a fine of Rupiah 25 million.”

The fine is up to $50,000 US dollars, not 25 million rupiah.

“The other way round, where is it stated that foreigners can volunteer (paid or unpaid) on VoA, Tourist Visa ?”

Good grief, I feel like I'm talking to a gecko!   

Nowhere in the law is anything specifically stated about unpaid volunteer work.     

If you've been following and reading this whole discussion then you should have already read this from one of my earlier posts:

<<It isn't the law that matters here...rather it's how it's regulated.

There are plenty of examples of this here in Indonesia.  For example, according to the anti pornography law, it is not allowed to wear bikini swim wear even at the beach.  Have you noted any tourists (or locals) in Bali arrested for wearing bikinis? 

Under that same law it is also forbidden to paint nude pictures of women…yet the very best Indonesian artists of nudes are Muslim, and they mostly reside in Java.  None of them have been arrested either.

Laws in Indonesia are purposely written in a vague manner which is subject to interpretation by the regulatory bodies.>>

And by the way, back to that article you linked to, did you read any of the comments that follow the article?

If so then you'll see that the author of that article herself is not really clear when challenged by others who have been doing volunteer work here in Indonesia.

Tom, I take it as safe for me to assume that you yourself have had no experience working with a licensed Yayasan or NGO here in Indonesia, nor have you been arranging folks from your home countries to come over to volunteer with any such organizations.  I have, and for a long time. 

For one last time, never have I ever encountered or heard of anyone coming into Bali to do unpaid volunteer work at a legitimate organization running afoul of immigration.  Moreover, my wife's uncle who has been an immigration officer here for all the years I've lived here supports what I am saying regarding how this is treated by immigration. 

Are we done now with this discussion?

http://jakarta.usembassy.gov/us-service … dance.html

Immigration officials have also detained foreigners for conducting work, academic, or other non-tourist activities while on visitor status. Even gratis volunteer work with local or international NGOs is not permitted on visitor status. Penalties for such immigration/visa violations have included a prison sentence of up to five years and a fine of Rupiah 25 million.

Fred, why don't you call the US Embassy and ask them if they can recount one single instance where someone was arrested, fined, jailed and deported solely for doing unpaid volunteer work in Bali at a licensed Yayasan or NGO.   

While you're at it, ask them what type of visa all the Americans who volunteered in Aceh after the tsunami were on.  For a more recent event you can ask the same question regarding Americans who volunteered to assist with the canine inoculations during the rabies epidemic on Bali.

Be sure to ask them to differentiate between cases of selective prosecution and cases where the sole reason was in fact a visa violation, and not the suspicion of illegal activities like pedophilia or drug use. 

You can also contact some various Yayasans and NGO's and ask them if they obtain KITAS visas for temporary volunteers, and if they also obtain work permits for those volunteers as the article that Tom linked to falsely maintains.  And also ask them if they can recall one instance where a non paid volunteer on a visit visa ran afoul of immigration solely because of their volunteer activities.

I'm still having a very hard time reconciling in my mind why on one hand you'd suggest to someone to keep a low profile while they do illegal free lance teaching (for payment) but on the other hand you dissuade someone who has the honorable intention of doing unpaid volunteer work.   And your reply in post #19 does not offer an explanation.

Roy, with all due respect I believe that all foreign volunteers on Bali do not much care if they need a work permit or not, no matter if paid/unpaid working for Yayasan, NGO etc. Those organisations do not apply for it because it's costly and complicated and one needs to deal with the Manpower.

Immigration on the island may not care too much about it as long volunteers keep low profile and no official gets upset.

http://jiwadamai.net/upload/PDFs/Jiwa_D … letter.pdf

Please have look at following paragraph:

Latest and newest requirement by Immigration:

Legally no one on a tourist or social visa entering Indonesia is allowed to work as a volunteer or doing an Internship in Indomesia.

Up to now this was a grey zone and no one objected to the many volunteers working here. With the new administration this has changed and we are obliged to apply after you arrival for a work permit month by month for each volunteer and intern. The new fee per month levied by Immigration is USD 200 for a tourist visa working permit and USD 130 for a social visa holder. This legalizes your working contribution as a volunteer and as an internship participant.

Tom, you're making me laugh over the lengths you'll go to desperately try to prove your point.

Does this place, Jiwa Damai, sound like a non profit Yayasan or NGO to you?  If so, then explain their room rates:

http://jiwadamai.net/contact-and-reservation/

And that last paragraph you quote from the letter is complete baloney.   

BTW, you're welcome to take on the very same challenge I gave to Fred in post #26.

Wow this is getting warm! hehe   Like the good man Rodney King once said "Can't we all just get along?" haha 

From my very limited understanding of how things work here there are tons of regulations, as in most countries, but what is special here is that the regs are just a big stick to use or intimidate with to anyone expat that falls short of any law.  The whatever government agency(ies) that gets wind of the perpetrator the law is not what is being protected but rather a great opportunity for the "collectors" to shake down the fallen-one. 

I am sure all that have been here for any length of time has experienced or known someone who has experienced so run-in with law.  I am sure that there are some that get served the full force of the law and maybe expelled from Indonesia for good or even a temporary exit.

I personally have experienced an infraction with the "law" during my years here.  I had a passport stolen from me by a local agent and held for ransom.  During the chase to get my passport back I incurred a long over stay.  I was never contacted by immigration even though we reported the matter to immigration office.  Rather I was contacted by M*********  after the agent pointed them my way by the thieving agent for a shakedown because I was not paying her bribe.  After a long chase on the agent, I get a visit at my residence address by a current and a retired I******* officer showing my passport.  They said they wanted to help me BUT I could NOT go to the I*******office or then my passport would still be AWOL. 

I ended up settling with these two goons for all legal infractions and never heard anything else from I******* or M************.  Clearly there was a clear connection between the thieving local agent and the I*********goons as well as the M********* men that came to shake me down.

So I am like whoever said earlier "there is the law and then their is the implementation of the law here in Indonesia"!  My biased opinion is that the law is not here to serve Indonesia and make it a better place but to be used by those that have paid their way into a position to be an "enforcer"!

Doc, where and when did this happen?

And, would you now agree that Indonesia is slowly “cleaning up its act” both within the police departments and immigration?

This happened in Jakarta and Tangerang area.  The i******* dealings was out of the Jkta office.  This was back in 2012-13 and took many months to come to a end.

I not sure IF I know if things are "cleaning up" as for the police and i*****i.  Both were involved as well as the US Embassy and no one really seemed that interested in helping EXCEPT for those that ended up with my passport (mysteriously and unexplained to this date) who found $ympathy on me! haha  The police would not act on the matter when we filed a police report unless I paid a big sum for their possible help.  I declined to pay for anything other than the transfer back to me my passport and under the table resolution of my over stay.

The head of i********** was told about this matter thru a local friend contact in the police dept and he said he was aware of the dealings of one his officers but nothing ever came of it.

If that sort of extortion was going on with you today I think you could easily find a whole new ally, that being the press which is having a field day with anti-corruption cases. 

Of course here in Bali most all of us who have been around a long while have had one sort of "dealing" with either immigration or the police.  Its "code name" in my part of the woods is called "paying dues."  But, while we once either had little other choice than to "play ball" these days we have other resources available, and that includes a far less corrupt immigration and police staff.  I personally don't know any long term expat here who wouldn't agree that things are much better than they used to be.

Ubudian I am sure that things are better here than in the "good ole" days but there still seems a deep abyss out there for someone to get lost in even today.  You mention things working better between immigration and the police seem to be very much in the news or should I say the police and the Anti-corruption agency!  I would be very tentative to jump into the news with my story with all the other fur flying these days! haha 

Heck the US Embassy would do nothing to assist me and basically told me that I should just file for a "lost passport" and get a new one even AFTER the spoke with the agent who was holding my passport for ransom and was told that YES she had my passport and demanded money to return it!  I have no real admiration for those guys/gals either! haha

Expat working in many places is being restricted, and that language test might well be on the cards.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015 … ister.html

"I am preparing regulations to control [the number of] foreign workers, among others, by tightening the placement of foreign workers in several companies in the country," Hanif said in Banjarmasin, South Kalimantan, on Saturday.

One of the ways to limit foreign worker numbers will be the introduction of an Indonesian language test, which has already been announced

.

Manpower aren't known for having a good attitude to foreign workers in Indonesia.

Yes language testing is definitely a very significant foreign worker factor but what it really seems to be is another way to slip a few bucks under the table to some government workers.  I was with a friend at one Jkta area i****** !office processing an extention to their VOA.  There were signs all over the office areas of i********** saying NO BRIBES to be offered/accepted.  In the area where one had to now get their photo taken and finger printed (for a friggin visitor/tourist visa???), the agent sitting at the desk and calling the "next" person in line was taking envelope after envelope for the agents that came into the room and to her desk.  Some clients of the agents presented themselves for a photo but there were lots of agents that no one was with them.  And this was just a couple of months back so if anyone thinks that this was in the past... not true.

So Doc, how much did your friend pay as a bribe to get their VOA extended another month?

A bunch of very serious allegations.
I think you have to back them up with something.

My experience of immigration Tangerang and the dirjen imigrasi in Jakarta have been good.
They were easily in a position to ask for bribes, but none did anything out of line.
I asked if any payment was required, but clearly told the paperwork was at no cost to myself.

Can you prove those envelopes contained bribes, not just paperwork, photos or whatever else may be required to process documents?

OMG!  Now I am being attacked for pointing out the obvious!  Yes i am sure they were full of cash!  When I sat less than ten feet away from the desk and the lady spread open the envelopes ANYONE could see it was cash!  Even someone that has had such honest "experience"s!      Should I wipe out my trusty phone cam and take photos for you next time Fred!

They did not pay and "bribes" to anyone agent or staff but the process was I think close to 500,000 plus to took one full week and four visits back to the i****** center to complete!  And they had to have a personal interview from one of the  top officers!  EVERYONE had to have this interview just for an extended VOA!  Now I hope some well experienced person can explain the rational for this?  For a regular tourist and not someone trying to abuse the "system" wanting to experience more of Indonesia and spend more money in the country and has to park themselves in one location for a week so they can go back every couple of days to submit another piece of paper only to return again for photos and whatever to come back again to pick up their passport that has been held this whole time WHICH forces the person to stay where they are and cannot change hotels, fly to another destination or whatever!   

I am sure I am being so lame to make such observations in the eyes of those much more experienced than I am.