Indonesia in bottom three Edcuation systems in the world

It isn't accurate to paint Indonesia's educational system with an overly broad brush as the quality of education depends on a multiple of factors, for example, the specific Province, Regency within that Province and the particular government school itself.  While education quality should be standardized and not subject to factors such as economy, the fact is that in some areas of Indonesia the level of public school education is at least on par, if not better than in the so-called “international” schools. 

“Also, it's all very well having a degree from University of Indonesia but getting an overseas degree means that you can get at least double the salary of someone who went to a local university.”

Get “double the salary” where…here in Indonesia, the foreign country where the student went to university, or another foreign country? 

And btw, before you go knocking Indonesia's universities you might want to keep in mind that ITB has been ranked 30th in the world, “surpassing the leading university in Asia, such as Tokyo University.”

Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandung_In … Technology

Equalizing Indonesia's educational opportunities for all citizens is one of Indonesia's top challenges, and President Jokowi would be the first to state this fact.  The way the current system works is to try to identify the “best and brightest” minds, regardless of their economic status and put those students into educational programs designed to provide the best opportunity for them to reach their potential.  Our own governor, I Made Mangku Pastika is a perfect example of how this approach can benefit even the poorest of the poor.

I appreciate you sticking up for Indonesia Roy.

I'm not "sticking up for Indonesia" Mike...rather I am only presenting the facts in an unbiased and accurate manner.

You might try it yourself sometime!   

Yeah you are just sticking up for Indonesia, and that's fine 

But honestly, how many of you guys would honestly put your children into a normal local government school? I think that the first choice is an International School, and if you can't afford it then at least a good private local school. Afterall, if we plan for our children to go to University back home some time in the future, it's good if they have some knowledge about the outside world.

Indonesia wants to improve it's education system, but so does every other country in the world. Politicians no matter which party they belong to will always talk positive about improving education in their country.

If you have an overseas degree you will get a much better starting salary than someone with a local degree. This is one of the incentives for Indonesians sending their kids to study overseas. I can't speak for Bali but this is how it often works in Jakarta.

You might be surprised how many mixed kids you can find in some of the public schools here on Bali.  For sure, kids of expats where both parents are foreign won't be seen in them, but kids of mixed marriages will.

The "proof is in the pudding" and that's best determined how well they do with the national exams each year.   

"If you have an overseas degree you will get a much better starting salary than someone with a local degree."

I'd like to see some data to support that "urban legend."

I have my four children in Indonesian schools. One is finishing her nursing praktek in java, two are at Udayana University in Denpasar and the youngest is in a public high school here in Singaraja. Two of them spent some time at an "international" school where I was the principal. The other two have done all of their studying in Indonesian schools, both in Sumbawa and Bali.

As Ubudian mentioned, the quality of schools here depends on the province, the regency and the city. Three of my children went to what is considered to be the best private school in Singaraja, another went to all public schools. The public high school where my youngest daughter goes is considered to be of higher academic quality than the private school that two of my other children attended.

I've been involved in education as a researcher and teacher (from Pre-K through university). I have a Ph.D. in educational anthropology.  I've taught at public schools in the U.S. and international and national plus schools in Indonesia. I've been a principal at three international schools and have trained both international and Indonesian teachers in the educational uses of technology. I've been writing about education for the past forty years. That's just some background MikeWallace.

I've seen excellent teachers here and some really poor ones; same goes from my work in international schools and U.S. schools. I've worked in schools that have had three kids to a desk and ones with the latest technology and air-conditioned classrooms (these are public schools in Indonesia). Education has a long way to go here, but if you can speak Indonesian, have strong relationships with local people, and bother to do some real research, you can find good educational opportunities in Indonesia.

Doc!  I'm betting that will quiet the beast!   

Selamat, Om Guru!   

And by the way, this statement by Mike Wallace should have been challenged earlier…my fault:

“It is sad to see that Indonesia has again been rated in the bottom three education systems in the world along with Brazil and Mexico. Other Asian countries such as South Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan rate near the top when Indonesia is consistently at the bottom?”

What's the data source for that statement anyway?

Here are the latest statistics from the United Nations, specifically, the Education Index:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/education-index

Note, Indonesia is rated at 108 out of 187 countries…hardly in the “bottom three education systems in the world.” 

Maybe Mike will care to share his source to justify what clearly appears to be a completely false statement.

Anyone interested in the list of what are in fact the 10 worse education systems in the world can check out this data:

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/poo … n-systems/

So, what do you think Mike?  Am I just “sticking up for Indonesia?"  Or, are you simply disparaging it without valid supportive data?

Same source as last year Roy.

Anyone who reads the BBC News on their Smart Phones might have read the article too, and I am sure there are a few here .

Indonesia is in the bottom three along with Brazil and Mexico. Now I think it's a shame and I hope that Indonesia will improve and work it's way up the ladder, after all, my two kids are Indonesian as are yours Roy. Your United Nations rating is several years out of date Roy.

Sticking up for Indonesia or knowing people in the Education Ministry or some university professors or having gone to Harvard or Oxford won't actually change the facts Roy. What will change the facts is a shift in the way education is managed in Indonesia.

Come on Roy, I have Indonesian kids the same as you do. I want education in Indonesia to improve as much as anyone, but let's not pretend it's good when it isn't. If you want to argue with the facts and try to tell me that Indonesia is 110th out of 180 countries according to the United Nations, well in my eyes that is also pretty bad compared to our Asian neighbours, many of whom rate in the top ten.

No need to automatically argue everything I say Roy. Just accept it and move on.

“No need to automatically argue everything I say Roy.”

On the contrary, there is every valid reason to argue against what are clearly biased comments with an obvious agenda attached to them.

Since you say it was in a BBC article where it was reported that, “Indonesia is in the bottom three along with Brazil and Mexico” then surely you can provide a link to that article, otherwise we have to take your word, and I'm sorry, but that is not good enough. 

So, either provide a source for your statement or accept the fact that your credibility is being challenged.     

“Your United Nations rating is several years out of date Roy.”

Baloney!  Read the very top of the report:

“Data in the tables are those available to the Human Development Report Office as of 15 November, 2013, unless otherwise specified.”  If the data for last year, 2014, has been released, I am unable to find it, but for certain, the data provided in that link is NOT "several years out of date."   Your statement is yet another lie by way of distorting the facts. 

You further write,

“If you want to argue with the facts and try to tell me that Indonesia is 110th out of 180 countries according to the United Nations, well in my eyes that is also pretty bad compared to our Asian neighbours, many of whom rate in the top ten.”

More baloney! 

Indonesia is rated number 108, not 110, and there is only ONE “Asian neighbor” rated in the top ten, and that is Singapore.  Step up Mike and do tell us...who are our "many Asian neighbors rated in the top ten?" 

Moreover NOBODY on this string is pretending that the educational system here is fine and not in need of improvement.  Once again, your comments are a distortion of what in fact has been written here.  Nobody with an inkling of intelligence and honesty could come to that conclusion reading this string!  But, to say it is in the “bottom three education systems in the world” is simply a lie, and I'm calling you out on that lie!. 

Mike, you have often revealed your negative agenda on this forum in regards to Indonesia, and that has been noted by several other regular poster here, who like me, have a long history of living in Indonesia. 

You continue to make unsupported and distorted claims which far transcend personal opinion.  I personally fail to see ANY contribution you have made to this forum.  On the contrary your behavior falls into pure trolling, solicitous of arguments.

drbruce wrote:

I have my four children in Indonesian schools. One is finishing her nursing praktek in java, two are at Udayana University in Denpasar and the youngest is in a public high school here in Singaraja. Two of them spent some time at an "international" school where I was the principal. The other two have done all of their studying in Indonesian schools, both in Sumbawa and Bali.

As Ubudian mentioned, the quality of schools here depends on the province, the regency and the city. Three of my children went to what is considered to be the best private school in Singaraja, another went to all public schools. The public high school where my youngest daughter goes is considered to be of higher academic quality than the private school that two of my other children attended.

I've been involved in education as a researcher and teacher (from Pre-K through university). I have a Ph.D. in educational anthropology.  I've taught at public schools in the U.S. and international and national plus schools in Indonesia. I've been a principal at three international schools and have trained both international and Indonesian teachers in the educational uses of technology. I've been writing about education for the past forty years. That's just some background MikeWallace.

I've seen excellent teachers here and some really poor ones; same goes from my work in international schools and U.S. schools. I've worked in schools that have had three kids to a desk and ones with the latest technology and air-conditioned classrooms (these are public schools in Indonesia). Education has a long way to go here, but if you can speak Indonesian, have strong relationships with local people, and bother to do some real research, you can find good educational opportunities in Indonesia.

Firstly I would like to congratulate you on being a teacher for 40 years. My own father was in education all his life, wrote books on the history of the Far East, and ended up as a University Director. Some of my own siblings are Directors with the British Council. And one of my best friends is the Chief Executive of the Cambridge International Examinations. I studied Mandarin in the same class as his wife back in the 80's in London and have known him since he was Director of the British Council in China.

However, I'm sorry to have to tell you this Bruce but you are totally missing the point here. The survey is done every year by a world renowned educational organization and is made without bias. The BBC reported it on their online news. It is not some nonsense that I just dreamed up. If you follow the BBC World news on your Smartphone then you would have read it yourself. However, you are most welcome to your opinion on global education standards. But seriously though, do you feel that you qualified to make the comparison between Indonesian educational standards and the other 180 countries that were included in the survey? Do you have access to the exam results from those 180 country's education authorities? Of course not, you are just saying your piece to say something nice about schools in Bali, and I really do appreciate your supportive comments.

Now we are all used to hearing how Bali is better than other parts of Indonesia, especially from expats who live in Bali 24/7. My own kids went to BIS and had a great time there and I wouldn't knock the standard of International Schools in Bali because I am not qualified to comment on them. But International schools are not part of this survey. It is rating of the standards of local government schools in 180 countries around the world carried out by a professional organization based on information gathered from those countries education authorities which I believe includes their exam results. And just to remind you again, it was on the BBC News online. Bruce, you may feel qualified to challenge those ratings. But then I guess you'd need access to the information that was used in the survey.

If you personally feel that Indonesian couldn't possibly be rated in the bottom three countries in the world for education standards, then instead of believing it, just follow Roy's preference of quoting the United Nations figures from 2006- 2008 which places Indonesia at 120th position, which is also very far down the list.

And then ask yourself, why do Indonesian's get paid a much higher starting salary if they have an overseas degree?

"Just follow Roy's preference of quoting the United Nations figures from 2006-2008 which places Indonesia at 120th position,"

Here's the link I provided again!

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/education-index

That very recent report places Indonesia at 108 and is current through the year 2013.   

If in fact Indonesia's rating was 120th for the 2006-2008 period, then what do the most recent statistics say to you?

Let me help you out.  It shows an improvement. 

"Now we are all used to hearing how Bali is better than other parts of Indonesia, especially from expats who live in Bali 24/7."

REALLY??!!

Care to quote just ONE statement from just ONE expat that said that?

Mike, I am sick and tired of your outright lies and distortions.  You need to be out of here, once and for all.

You are a troll...period.

Time to send Julien some of this:

http://www.homeinbali.com/forum/uploads … _67842.jpg

Ubudian wrote:

"Just follow Roy's preference of quoting the United Nations figures from 2006-2008 which places Indonesia at 120th position,"

Here's the link I provided again!

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/education-index

That very recent report places Indonesia at 108 and is current through the year 2013.   

If in fact Indonesia's rating was 120th for the 2006-2008 period, then what do the most recent statistics say to you?

Let me help you out.  It shows an improvement. 

"Now we are all used to hearing how Bali is better than other parts of Indonesia, especially from expats who live in Bali 24/7."

REALLY??!!

Care to quote just ONE statement from just ONE expat that said that?

Mike, I am sick and tired of your outright lies and distortions.  You need to be out of here, once and for all.

You are a troll...period.

Time to send Julien some of this:

http://www.homeinbali.com/forum/uploads … _67842.jpg

Let's just all calm down shall we? I'm sure we can all be friends. I visit Bali every few months and would love to meet up with you Roy. Probably we know many of the same people there and I am sure you have many interesting stories to tell.

Mike, you keep referring to this "unbiased report… by a world renowned educational organization” yet you still haven't provided a link to it.  As any first year journalism student would understand…cite your source!  What “renowned educational organization” and where can someone read "this report" and the methodology used for themselves? 

As for meeting up personally...no thanks.  I have NO interest in meeting you, and thanks again, but I have plenty of friends...all of whom are honest and well versed in what integrity means...Dr. Bruce being one of them.

I'm sorry Roy. I am not a journalist and the articles is gone from my handphone because international news articles gets replaced fast on news apps.

If I find the link will you then accept it and offer me an apology? That would be gentlemanly.

Hi Roy, the article can be found at:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27314075

It states that, "The lowest-ranked European country is Greece, with a group of emerging economies at the bottom of the table, including Indonesia, Mexico and Brazil."

The ratings according to the article:

TOP 20 EDUCATION SYSTEMS

    1. South Korea
    2. Japan
    3. Singapore
    4. Hong Kong
    5. Finland
    6. UK
    7. Canada
    8. Netherlands
    9. Ireland
    10. Poland
    11. Denmark
    12. Germany
    13. Russia
    14. United States
    15. Australia
    16. New Zealand
    17. Israel
    18. Belgium
    19. Czech Republic
    20. Switzerland

"These rankings are based upon an amalgamation of international tests and education data - including the OECD's Pisa tests, and two major US-based studies, Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (Timss) and Progress in International Reading Literacy Study (Pirls)."

Why would I be expected to offer you an apology because you finally came up with a link to your source?  And, why would you presume that I would accept it?

For your information, this report was “compiled for Pearson (Education) by the Economist Intelligence Unit.”

Who are they?

Answers: 

“The Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) is an independent business within The Economist Group providing forecasting and advisory services through research and analysis, such as monthly country reports, five-year country economic forecasts, country risk service reports, and industry reports.”

Source: Economist Intelligence Unit's web page "who we are"

“Pearson Education is a British-owned education publishing and assessment service to schools and corporations, as well as directly to students. Pearson owns educational media brands including Addison–Wesley, BBC Active, Bug Club, eCollege, Fronter, Longman, MyEnglishLab, Penguin Readers, Prentice Hall, Poptropica and Financial Times Press.”

Source:  Wikipedia

And the article was published in the BBC, May 8, 2014 under the title:

UK 'second best education in Europe'

So, who are you going to believe…British owned for profit companies in the field of education, or objective analysis by the United Nations Development Programme?

Have you compared the lists of the top 20 educational systems provided by these two totally separate entities?   Do you think there might be some economic incentive (increasing business) by these for profit entities, or do you think it's just coincidence that the three named countries listed as being the worse…Indonesia, Mexico and Brazil each also happen to be G-20 nations and thus presumably in an economic position to pay for Pearson Education services and products? 

On the UN list, Indonesia is 108 out of 187 countries, Mexico is 71 and Brazil is 79. 

How do YOU account for the disparity in these two reports?  I know how I account for it! 

And, back to your earlier comment, “Your United Nations rating is several years out of date” please explain how a report released in early May of 2014 can be so much more current than a report compiled in mid November, 2013…just five months apart?   

You might consider that when you want to make broad brushed statements about anything to do with Indonesia, you might want to consult sources which are free from the conflict of interests inherent in businesses for profit based in the UK, and rely more on an internationally renown organizations which are free from any conflicts of interest, like the United Nations.

And just to close, this other "broad brush" statement by you is total bull:

"And then ask yourself, why do Indonesian's get paid a much higher starting salary if they have an overseas degree?"

That is not factually true as a general comment, but surely an Indonesian Harvard graduate would expect to earn more in Indonesia than a graduate of Udayana.  Obviously graduates of top world universities can expect higher starting salaries.  Show me one country where that isn't true. 

Mike, your agenda and anti-Indonesia sentiments are very clear, and trust me, they have been well noted by many other regular contributors to this forum.

Please stop being so aggressive Roy. It's just an article I read on the BBC World News on my handphone. I didn't write the article and I haven't spoken for or against it. I am simply stating what the article says. But it does state that the Indonesian Education system is in the bottom three in the world. That is a topic for debate or do you prefer to deny anything bad about Indonesia? You worry me Roy as facing up to the facts and being honest are important.

As you well know, i have been working in Indonesia since 1981. I worked as a Petroleum Geologist with Union Oil, Conoco, Mobil, Kodeco, Huffco, Pertamina and a few other companies here. I love this country and I hope that things such as education will improve. The same for corruption, transportation and medical.

But because we love this country doesn't mean that we must pretend that everything is hunky dory here. That would be lying to oneself. Let's just acknowledge that there are problems in the education system which hopefully will be addressed by the government in the future.

I suspect that your reasons for always attacking me is more about you not liking me than about what I contribute. Am I right Roy? If this is the case you would be better off refocusing your energy on other things.

As I think I once said before. This blog shouldn't be about trying to prove you know more than others and them slamming them when you are not happy. You may very well be one of the world's leading authorities on Education. I cannot agree or disagree with that. But at least please respond without aggression and you may feel happier. Think about it Roy.

Mike, you had better read your first post again and the statements you made in it.

And please, don't worry about me, as I am just fine.  However I don't suffer fools gladly and I have contempt for those who distort the truth, make broad brush generalized statements, and reveal a deeply rooted agenda which is not difficult to recognize. 

"I suspect that your reasons for always attacking me is more about you not liking me than about what I contribute. Am I right Roy?"

No, as usual, you are way off target.  I don't attack you Mike, but yes, I often attack your messages which are frequently baseless and without accuracy or truth.  You are the one who specializes in personal attacks.  And you are the one who constantly assumes that I and others think everything is "hunky dory" here.

You clearly don't read responses, or if you do, you fail to acknowledge what is written in them.  You just carry on with your assumptions. 

As for your supposed background, I don't know anything about you, nor do I know anyone who has ever acknowledged that they know you.  For all I know, your sole purpose here is simply for your own entertainment.  Others on this forum I know personally, and I know they aren't full of BS.  Frankly, I believe very little, if anything you say about yourself. 

"You may very well be one of the world's leading authorities on Education. I cannot agree or disagree with that."

You see...that's a perfect example of your endless twisting of words.  I never once alluded to, inferred, or stated outright that I am any sort of leading authority on education.  I do know two of them here on Bali...Dr. Bruce being one, and the other being Dr. Dewi in Singaraja.  I've brought both of them up in prior discussions as well as providing links to their web sites, blogs and backgrounds.   

What YOU ought to be thinking about is what you write because you clearly have no regard for facts, or the truth.

As I said, read this entire string again starting with your original post.  How many times did you write that I was "sticking up for Indonesia" and completely avoided the substance of the rebuttals to your generalized and baseless comments? 

No Mike, we will never be friends.  For me, friendships begin with respect, and the truth is, I have absolutely zero respect for you.

Let's just leave it at that.

Following is the original link to the Pearson Index. http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/index/index-ranking . Indonesia is ranked at 39 in this list. There are only 39 countries included in this Index. Indonesia'a immediate neighbor Malaysia is not included in the list. Same with Vietnam, India and Philippine, which are excluded from this Index. Only neighboring countries included are Singapore and Thailand.

If this Index is a true representation, then we should not send our kids to France, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and Austria, it would be better for them to study in Poland and Czech Republic based on these countries high ranking in the Pearson Index..

Based on the Index Russia has a better educational system than US, Australia and New Zealand..

I think many Eastern European countries have high standards of education these days. Unfortunately France is still very old fashioned in their education system. These days many french university students think "get a degree, then get out of France". But this is linked to it's political situation and low salaries and the fact that more than half the population works for the State. I don't know anything about Vietnam's educational system but I don't think that Malaysia has a very good education system. On top of that, Malaysia gives priority to ethnic Malays (Bumiputras) when it comes to enrolling students at local universities. They've come under a lot of criticism recently for accepting Ethnic Malays with lower grades over Chinese or Indian Malaysians with perfect grades. For countries such as Russian, Czech Republic and Poland, I can believe that their education system is good.

The US may be not all that high on the Index but they do have some excellent universities, some of the best in the world.

Indonesia is 39th and bottom on this list, but out of the full list of 180 they say in the bottom three. I don't think that the Pearson Index has purposely rated us at the bottom without good reason. So rather than argue about this point we should just accept our position as low. Even being 108th on the UN ratings as Roy pointed out earlier is still very low.

which full list of 180 countries you are referring? This Index only have data of 39 countries  on its website and 40 countries data in Appendix I in the published report.. There are not 180 countries comparison in the report.. The entire 28 pages report can be downloaded on this link http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/con … inal_1.pdf ...  The Report is also available in Excel format http://thelearningcurve.pearson.com/con … 2.xlsx.xls  ...

Thanks!

Mike Wallace writes,

“Indonesia is 39th and bottom on this list, but out of the full list of 180 they say in the bottom three.”

What?

The only list nearing 180 is the UN list, which is actually for 187 countries, and in that list Indonesia is NOT in the bottom three.  Ranked as 108 out of 187 countries does NOT put Indonesia in the bottom three!

It clearly states within the Pearson report that it is limited to 39 countries and the administrative region of Hong Kong…which is “used as a proxy for China.” 

Get we please get things correct here and cease with purposeful distortions which are clearly meant to enhance your argument? 

For the record, this Pearson report has only been conducted since 2012.  Or, in other words, for three years.   The UN report has been conducted since 1980. 

The opening statement to this string was,

“It is sad to see that Indonesia has again been rated in the bottom three education systems in the world along with Brazil and Mexico.”

We now know that statement is entirely false.  Indonesia has NOT "been rated in the bottom three education systems in the world."

Just to summarize this string, here is a list of some of the totally false statements to be found here authored by Mike Wallace:

-    “It is sad to see that Indonesia has again been rated in the bottom three education systems in the world along with Brazil and Mexico.”

-    “Your United Nations rating is several years out of date Roy.”

-    “However, I'm sorry to have to tell you this Bruce but you are totally missing the point here. The survey* is done every year by a world renowned educational organization and is made without bias.  *Referring to the Pearson report.”

-    “Now we are all used to hearing how Bali is better than other parts of Indonesia, especially from expats who live in Bali 24/7.”

-    “…getting an overseas degree means that you can get at least double the salary of someone who went to a local university.”

Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong side.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is all well and good for bullshit arguments, but how about looking at what's really happening.

Dr. Puchta seems very optimistic about Indonesia's future, as do all the major educational materials suppliers.
Pearson are very active, as are Cambridge University press via Mentari books.
Cash is still a problem in many state schools, but I understand the 2013 curriculum is postponed, probably scrapped. An excellent move for Indonesian kids' educations.

Indonesia is still a young country, one that has faced many political problems, but I have confidence in it having a bright future.

Well put Fred.

The facts are that the Pearson Index does exist. Is it right or wrong? Who knows. We could argue both for and against until the cows go home. What we can conclude is that Indonesia does not perform very well in it's educational standard based on both that Index and also the Roy's UN ratings. What about the future? As Fred says, Indonesia is a young country that has faced lots of problems, political, corruption, poverty. I too hope that the educational standard will improve and I hope we can see this in the next few years.

On a personal note, I have invested in this country that we call home because I believe in it's potential.

Mike, that last statement is a far cry from how you began this string.

Should you make any future posts about any aspect of Indonesia, hopefully this string will serve as a good lesson for you to avoid unsubstantiated and totally false statements.

Personally I find it impossible to reconcile how a person who claims to “love Indonesia” would carry on with such wanton abandonment of the facts and indiscriminately  disparage with ease the country they say they love.

Thanks for your input on this thread Roy.

But honestly, how many of you guys would honestly put your children into a normal local government school? I think that the first choice is an International School, and if you can't afford it then at least a good private local school. Afterall, if we plan for our children to go to University back home some time in the future, it's good if they have some knowledge about the outside world.

Indonesia wants to improve it's education system, but so does every other country in the world. Politicians no matter which party they belong to will always talk positive about improving education in their country.

If you have an overseas degree you will get a much better starting salary than someone with a local degree. This is one of the incentives for Indonesians sending their kids to study overseas. I can't speak for Bali but this is how it often works in Jakarta.

According to you, Mike, I missed the point. The point is that I was answering the question quoted above. I did not address your claim about the ranking of the Indonesian educational system because there was no link to the study you were referring to.

Second, I'm not sure what your father's academic qualifications have to do with anything here, nor, for that matter, who you know. My father was a factory worker. I know teachers, students, fishermen and laborers. I was stating my background in reference to talking about public schools, private schools and international schools.

Third, you don't know me, and I find it quite offensive for you to stoop to some ad hominem shot about how "we" (who is we?) are "used to hearing how Bali is better than other parts of Indonesia, especially from expats who live in Bali 24/7." I never made any such statement about Bali being better than any other part of the country, nor am I a Bali expat. I'm an immigrant who has lived on three islands over the past 25 years, and I am fond of all of them.

I'd suggest paying attention to what you write and what you are asking of readers. You might also want to read comments on what you said carefully. The fact that you've attributed comments to me that I clearly didn't make, suggests to me that you are less than trustworthy.

Thanks for your contribution in this thread Bruce. Bali is indeed a wonderful place.

I've submitted this string to Julien for his review and with my suggestion that it be removed.

While it does serve as a revealing insight to one particular poster, the fact remains that its very title, which we all know to be totally false, sticks out on the forum's table of contents like a pig in a dress.  Moreover, most of the content written by the originating poster is totally false as well.   

Also, but of less importance, it was posted in the wrong category, Bali.

Are the educational results "normed" after taking into account for female high students unable to complete their schooling due to failing the virginity test?

http://thejakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/n … l-virgins/

Awaiting the usual hysterical response from the highlands of Bali....

If you think that proposed law is nutty, wait to you read the one proposing that all obnoxious expats in Yogyakarta be flogged and then deported!   

time for popcorn and beer.....

indostocks wrote:

Are the educational results "normed" after taking into account for female high students unable to complete their schooling due to failing the virginity test?
.

I'm unsure one man's rather 'interesting' idea is relevant to the topic in question.

happyhour wrote:

time for popcorn and beer.....

Beer is haram.

Haram is about getting pissed...

see Quran 2:21, 4:43 & especially 5:90

not just hoisting one or a few.

Helps us middle Javanites cope with the verbal diarrhea, floating in on the bandwidth, from  the greater Jakarta regions as well as Isle of the Stoners!

By the way, the title to this thread: [/b]Indonesia in bottom three Edcuation systems in the world[/b]. Am I the only one who noticed that the salient word is misspelt?

>>>> Sound of one hand, clapping<<<<

Lazy bules indeed!