Polish reality

I would say the biggest problem is that many people (e.g. in the shops) can't speak English or often they are just hesitated to talk in this language. And I do not like that often they don't even try to explain what they said. If I had a problem with understanding foreigners when I was living in my home country I really tried to understand them and make myself understood, even if I had to use my hands and feets to explain.

The second thing which I don't like so much here is that it is quite hard to get in touch with the locals. I do have family here, so it is a bit different. But if you just come here by yourself it might be a bit difficult to find some real friends among the natives.

But these are just "little" interpersonally problems. Overall life here is good. The standard of living is quite high (in the city!) and I didn't face any big problems during my time im Warsaw.

Snuka241 wrote:

I would say the biggest problem is that many people (e.g. in the shops) can't speak English or often they are just hesitated to talk in this language..

Ask yourself one question.... If these very same Polish citizens came to Germany wouldn't YOU and EVERYBODY ELSE in the country expect the to learn to speak German? Or would you learn Polish to accommodate THEM?

When we travel to other countries where OUR language is not spoken, it's up to us to adapt and learn the local language, not the other way around. It's something called RESPECT for the country, its citizens and their culture.

As far as "not being able to get in touch with the locals" goes, that too is due to a lack of learning the local language, which isolates you within the expat community and restricts you to those who speak your language.

I've been living in Brazil for 13 years now; I made a concerted effort to learn the language (Portuguese) before I came here and believe me it was well worth the effort. I have probably a hundred times more Brazilian friends than I do English speaking friends. I never have problems being understood wherever I go and that can be something that one day may even save your life. Imagine being taken to an Emergency Ward following a traumatic accident and NOT being able to tell the medical staff what's wrong, what you feel or don't feel, and what you want them to do.

Cheers,
James        Expat-blog Experts Team

James has that one nailed.

When you move abroad, you must do your best to learn the local lingo.
Start with "Thank you". "How much?" and learn the numbers.
That'll be just about enough to crawl your way through shopping.

This is one issue I fully agree with the right wing groups on, all be it for different reasons, a foreigner MUST learn as much of his host country's language as possible.
You just can't live a reasonable life without doing so.

I totally agree with you that if you stay for many years in a foreign country you should learn the language as good as possible! What I wrote about were my experiences when I got here. As it was a short-term decision to move to Warsaw for one year I did not have enough time to learn the language perfectly before I moved here. But I did attend a polish course at my university to learn the basics and I try to talk in Polish whenever I can. But I have to admit that learning this language is quite hard for me, as it is totally different to the languages I knew before.

And yes, I do expect from foreigners who settle down in my home country to learn the language.
But I do not expect from them to know the language good enough to speak fluently within the first few months after they came to Germany. And I am willing to talk to them in English (which is also not my mother tongue/ I would never expect a local to learn German!!!) which is world language number one or explain something with gestures if it is necessary.

Actually English is far from being the world's #1 language, but it certainly is the international language of business (for now).

German isn't even on the list of the ten most widely spoken languages in the world so it would be unreasonable to think that Poles are going to learn it.

1. Chinese (Mandarin)         1,075,000,000
2. English                       514,000,000
3. Hindustani                        496,000,000
4. Spanish                        425,000,000
5. Russian                        275,000,000
6. Arabic                                256,000,000
7. Bengali                        215,000,000
8. Portuguese                        194,000,000
9. Malay-Indonesian            176,000,000
10. French                        129,000,000

Just so that everyone is aware, while it's true that many Europeans do speak English as a second language they don't all do so, so it would be unwise to go to any European country for extended periods expecting to get by on English only. There is no substitute for learning the local language. It always makes life much easier, not only in the workplace, but also in day-to-day living.

Cheers,
James           Expat-blog Experts Team

mas fred wrote:

James has that one nailed.

Polish is the lingua franca. Just give that some thought.

The most important thing is not the ability to speak a language. Look at Canada and the two solitudes in Quebec for an example - or other countries in Europe, like Spain, if you're not familiar with Canada. The answer should be obvious.

The most important thing is knowing local culture. With a difference in culture, even people speaking the same language will experience communications barriers. Only the most simple people believe language is the silver bullet. (Which is why a business lingua franca exists, but only so far as it reaches.)

Customer with a 50PLN bill: May I have some change please? 
Retail clerk in Poland: No that's okay.

Customer thanking a waiter: Thank you
Polish Waiter keeps a tip worth 200% of the bill without bringing change.

Ways of turning a phrase in [fill in the language here] will be fraught with culture. Canadians are traditionally polite even in voicing displeasure. This can be viewed as weakness in Poland - where weakness is not respected and often a clarion call to take advantage of someone. Likewise, in Asia, politely confronting someone directly [in native Asian language] would be rude. In all these cases language fluency does not help - might even cloud the intent. Think of the many first generation Americans who are fluent in their parents' foreign language who travel to their parent's homeland only to be... shocked.

Everyone likes to showboat how he or she can be mistaken for a native of the foreign land they are in. Those that do not showboat, that are content with being a foreigner or may even have language-learning barriers, should not suffer negative aspersions from others.

Just saying.

Snuka241: "I would say the biggest problem is that many people (e.g. in the shops) can't speak English or often they are just hesitated to talk in this language"
James: "Ask yourself one question.... If these very same Polish citizens came to Germany wouldn't YOU and EVERYBODY ELSE in the country expect the to learn to speak German? Or would you learn Polish to accommodate THEM?
When we travel to other countries where OUR language is not spoken, it's up to us to adapt and learn the local language, not the other way around. It's something called RESPECT for the country, its citizens and their culture.
As far as "not being able to get in touch with the locals" goes, that too is due to a lack of learning the local language, which isolates you within the expat community and restricts you to those who speak your language."

James, you are so right. I used to live in Germany for 10 years and NOBODY tried to help me. I was expected to speak German full stop. Even if I studied there and have German degree, I was told very often that I will not get a job relevant to my degree (I am a landscape architect) as German is not my native language.
I moved to England and lived there for 15 years. True, English were more tolerant in respect of my job but privately, again...nobody made any effort to understand that in certain situation I am not native and I often find myself in difficult position when people ignored me in conversations (I obviously were slower in a group discussions) or did not made any effort to understand me, when my pronunciation wasn't correct.
Nevertheless, I find in both counties great friends as I made great effort to integrate. In my view, it is the duty to try to learn language in try to integrate, not wait for others to babysit adult people. If you make an effort to fit in (language is mandatory for that), people in any country will appreciate that and welcome you warmly.
I am not an expat, but my husband is and after 6 months leaving here, he is never ignored or treated badly. Mainly because he always ordering in restaurants with his broken Polish and try to speak to friends. Try that.

The Shadow
"Polish is the lingua franca."

What do you mean by that?

Hi. I am not an expat but my husband is. Well I am a bit as well as returned to Poland after 25 years.
What is difficult for my husband and I is to deal with formalities. Obviously we are used to English ways which is understandably different.
We are trying to buy a flat and find some moves from the developer frankly not professional. The system is not well regulated and often favors the seller. Buyers have not enough protection by law.

I also do not like the pesel. Often passport is not enough and I feel sometimes like in concentration camp, constantly being asked for my number...lol

Despite all that, my husband (English) and I just love our life in Krakow. People are very friendly, try to speak to Steve English as much as they can. This Steve doesn't like as he wants to practice his (basic now but he is learning) Polish but he appreciate this as it means that he is accepted and people are making effort to communicate with him.

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NFZ is my biggest problem!

To bikerjenko : I agree with you. We got LuxMed (private health care). Unfortunately they are not covering major operation. Therefore, when I assisted my mum, who had a major operation....The hospital staff acted like we are disturbing them. Extremely good doctors but the bed manners are less then poor. Shame but true.

Then there is the current story about not sitting next to a Thai Monk on a train - no words necessary. Better bone up on the cultural implications of a Monk and his space....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6soVObi9HY

The English teacher struck by the monk has a Thai wife so one reasonably assumes some basic native language speaking was available to him either as a private instructor (his wife/family) or as an on-site mediator (with him on the train).

Language did not seem to help him.
He'd have been better being more culturally aware.

Anyways, for what it is worth in this conversation.

The Shadow,

About the only thing that you've said that I agree with is that one should learn as much about the local culture as possible. Beyond that we seem to diverge completely. Language barriers are the single greatest reason for the failure of expats to adapt to living anywhere in the world.

Regarding Canada, you can learn all you want about the culture of Québec and that's not going to help you one little bit if you don't speak French. They won't even give you the time of day if you don't. Try operating a business there, you'd damned well better be prepared to have French language signs and make sure that all the documents you use are bilingual with French first. In fact even speaking French may not help you in Quebec, I've been there, used to speak French at an advanced level. Just because I didn't speak it with a Quèbecois accent I found myself being ignored everywhere I went. You cannot compare Québec with anyplace else on earth, the situation and attitudes there are completely different.

We agree on Quebec. But I am surprised you cannot clearly see how that only emphasizes what I have been saying above.

I am English-Quebec from a family going back 300 years. I had taken French in school from kindergarten all the way to university, and it never stuck. I would be the Montreal "White Rhodesian" slave owner Pierre Vallières writes about in his book, White Niggers of America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Niggers_of_America. As a symbol, I would have been the target of the bombings, kidnappings and murder of Vallières' FLQ 

And yet….

I have operated a small business delivering service exclusively to French clients (who spoke terrible English I can truthfully add) wishing to market goods to the English language market. I had to live, work, sign business contracts, and basically live my day-to-day existence in a foreign country my whole life. Even my civil courts operate exclusively in French. So I know racial discrimination and I know about cross-culture from personal experience.

The xenophobia over the French Quebec culture within Canada is much more palpable enforce in its constitutional legislature and visible in its Human Rights challenges than any xenophobia Poland exhibits over its language and culture within Europe. (Not withstanding that one time, a few years back, when some hick politician proposed Polish to be made the official language of all Europe because of Poland's geographic location in Europe – but stupidity and Polish jokes are a topic for another Thread.) Quebec is far more sissified than Poland with less historical reason. So Poland should be more open with regards to language – and it is to the extent of the law and the public school system.

Companies in Poland do not get fined thousands of dollars for hiring an English person, for example. So a waiter speaking fluent English should not be as much a surprise in Poland as it would be in Quebec. Point one.

My barrier to language learning means I am also unilingual in Poland (and I have lost the mastery of my native language I once had through its disuse in Poland). I share this personal detail because my story is not so unusual if only too infrequently considered when arguments are made about people should just learn.

Some times people can't just.

It is worth mentioning so those lacking the experience can fathom how it is possible for someone unilingual to flourish without a local language (even within a locality as hostile to the English language as Quebec). It is worthwhile to understand so that such explanations that hinge on just learning can begin to consider learning disabilities in their dogma. Maybe then there will be fewer suggestion that not learning is because someone is rude or stupid and/or both in his or her host culture.

I am saying as much now to specifically show how ignorant I believe such a default position is.  Point two.

Now that I understand the Polish culture, life is smoother for me as a unilingual person. I realise perception is primarily based on how someone presents oneself and not on what someone says. Not being bilingual certainly has a need to overcome in the perception of others borne on ignorance. Lawyers argue such points – and Poland is the most litigious country in the EU according to someone I know who should know. That does not necessarily make the local bright about such things – except that there does not seem to be a standardized Polish language in Poland. Depending upon the region, one Polish speaking Pole may find Czech to be easier to understand than Polish from another part of the country – a population larger than the whole of Canada in a region the size of (it feels like) Labrador.  Point three.

I actually taught this stuff, in English obviously, to local clients like Heyah!, PKO and to graduate students at UW as well as to foreign international companies where most people might immediately think I would be a natural fit to open a door because of my business English, but where it was actually harder to open a door. My most successful employment has been with a Polish company whose CEO I trust to handle the local paperwork on my behalf. After all, I do not expect myself to be a master of everything - even if I were a master of legal language Polish.

It does come down to culture and how open the individual locals are to collaborating with foreigners - in my specific case English language foreigners.

To understand Polish culture, one first needs to understand that the whole culture is based on negative reinforcement practices; specifically avoidance and punishment techniques of behaviour modification. In this country, the beatings do/should continue until morale improves. Not so in the English culture. English culture is predicated on the positive reinforcement techniques that inform personnel strategies like job loading for example, which just does not work here. Ask any foreign CEO in camera as have I. I won't touch upon the philosophical or practical implications of Hofstede's cultural dimensions for Poland beyond to say: they're obvious in comparison. Sometimes I feel I am more in Asia than I am in Europe. Point Four.

When I feel that, I act accordingly. And it works without language to charm the locals.

In conclusion, I want to remark on casual relationships. Everyone appreciates a few words in the native language (even broken phrases) coming from a Polish shopkeeper, a stewardess, or even a tourist. I am not so much concerned with how to impress with a casual “dzień dobry” or “have a nice day” as I am with answering the original poster's question about the difficulties of day-to-day life in Poland.

With regards to that question, knowing the language will not help one out.  One can always find some local to be an assistant if needed. But knowing the Polish culture, and the cultural differences between the expat's home culture and the host country, will inform the expat about the many self-inflicted difficulties of Polish life and suggest strategies how to cope.

To The Shadow:

Hi. English is not my native language. At the beginning of following your posts, I thought that this is the reason why I do not understand your points. But now, and I do not mean this a harsh as it sounds, Now I think, that you really like "hearing yourself talking"
Let me explain my opinion discussing points from you last post.

1. "Poland should be more open with regards to language – and it is to the extent of the law and the public school system."

Are you saying that Polish people are not open with regards to language? I strongly disagree with that. Maybe not everyone is speaking English, but majority educated people had 2 foreign languages at school. German, French, English, Russian are the most thought.

2. "Some times people can't just."

The whole paragraph ending with that statement is diverting from the topic. Of course there are people with learning difficulties but this is an extreme case that doesn't help the majority, nor can help the discussions.
I was for example very week in languages at school. The fact that I am dyslectic also doesn't help. When however I emigrated to Germany, I put all my energy and learn the language to the extend that I passed all exams. My hard work was rewarded with a German degree.
Then I emigrated to England, repeated the effort and had 15 successful years of working there as a landscape architect. There was no other way, and no extra points for being not English. Only my hard work. Obviously professional documents were checked by my husband but with the time I needed his help less and less.
My point is, that even if you are not gifted and are dyslectic, it is possible to speak 4 languages.

3. "It is worthwhile to understand so that such explanations that hinge on just learning can begin to consider learning disabilities in their dogma. Maybe then there will be fewer suggestion that not learning is because someone is rude or stupid and/or both in his or her host culture."

In majority cases the arrogance is the case unfortunately. Again, your example is not relevant in discussion as it is extreme and I will not even consider to use the same tactic although extreme cases are so easy to find.

4. "I am saying as much now to specifically show how ignorant I believe such a default position is"

I will not comment on that for the reasons I listed above.

5. "Not being bilingual certainly has a need to overcome in the perception of others borne on ignorance".

Everyone can speak to some extend at lease one foreign language. Ignorance is going to a foreign country without wanting to mix with locals. And you can't do it without the language.

6. "That does not necessarily make the local bright about such things – except that there does not seem to be a standardized Polish language in Poland. Depending upon the region, one Polish speaking Pole may find Czech to be easier to understand than Polish from another part of the country – a population larger than the whole of Canada in a region the size of (it feels like) Labrador."

Interesting...There is standard Polish language. Obviously there are some variations in accents and some local words are used differently to other regions, but your statement is frankly not true.
My brother in law is coming from a region like that. Kaszuby have their own language. I understand their language a bit as I do speak German, but I never met any Kaszubian, even older generation (and I know a lot of them since originally I am coming from Gdansk), that would not speak  standard Polish, which is called "literacki polski". Similar concept to hoch Deutsch

7. "My most successful employment has been with a Polish company whose CEO I trust to handle the local paperwork on my behalf. After all, I do not expect myself to be a master of everything - even if I were a master of legal language Polish."

This is great that you have a nice boss. Of course nobody would expect from you to master the language to that extend. But still, not to learn the local language, will prohibit you from true integration in any society.

8. "It does come down to culture and how open the individual locals are to collaborating with foreigners - in my specific case English language foreigners."

Hmmm. I never felt that, leaving in Germany or England. And it is good so. I therefore learn the language quicker and could properly take part in any conversations or discussions. It is up to individual, that decided to live in foreign country to integrate. Locals can and should make allowances and understand that it is difficult, but it is not their duty. They did not make that decision for you. You did.

9."To understand Polish culture, one first needs to understand that the whole culture is based on negative reinforcement practices; specifically avoidance and punishment techniques of behaviour modification. In this country, the beatings do/should continue until morale improves. Not so in the English culture. English culture is predicated on the positive reinforcement techniques that inform personnel strategies like job loading for example, which just does not work here. Ask any foreign CEO in camera as have I. I won't touch upon the philosophical or practical implications of Hofstede's cultural dimensions for Poland beyond to say: they're obvious in comparison. Sometimes I feel I am more in Asia than I am in Europe"

How can you understand the culture without the language? Where is theater, literature, films, poetry, stand-up comedy or even parties where people want to discuss everything and anything?
To to quote Hofstede is a nice trick. I do not see how the paragraph could help anyone to find a place in any society. But maybe it does but you would need to translate the quote for me to understand what you mean.

A sociologist Janusz Hryniewicz stated, that special feature of Polish society, even more a basis of social structuring is a strong identification with small groups, such as families and friends, followed then by strong bond with the nation. Weaker than in other countries, is sense of connectedness with associations,  political parties, interest groups, clubs, workplaces, etc.  Poles create many, from the point of view of standard Hofstede, compounds of a collective: Gemeinschaft type social networks - community, primary, spontaneous, based on direct contact , built on the "lower" levels of social organization - family, friends, support groups.

How would you integrate in a community like this without language. You may like it or not, but it is like that in Poland. Direct contact is essential and the language is a tool to get those contacts.

10. "When I feel that, I act accordingly. And it works without language to charm the locals."

To address anyone in their own language is a politeness, not charming.

11. "In conclusion, I want to remark on casual relationships. Everyone appreciates a few words in the native language (even broken phrases) coming from a Polish shopkeeper, a stewardess, or even a tourist. I am not so much concerned with how to impress with a casual “dzień dobry” or “have a nice day” as I am with answering the original poster's question about the difficulties of day-to-day life in Poland. "

Again, if you make an effort, they will as well. It is only polite and make the life in foreign country so much easier and more enjoyable. Especially in day-to-day life.

12. "With regards to that question, knowing the language will not help one out."

It absolutely will. I see that everyday when my (English) husband learn and use more and more Polish. I also have my own experience (as I said above) living 10 years in Germany and 15 years in England.

. Sorry I do not know how to delete my post. I wanted to quote and miss that. I will do that now

mas fred wrote:

James has that one nailed.

When you move abroad, you must do your best to learn the local lingo.
Start with "Thank you". "How much?" and learn the numbers.
That'll be just about enough to crawl your way through shopping.

This is one issue I fully agree with the right wing groups on, all be it for different reasons, a foreigner MUST learn as much of his host country's language as possible.
You just can't live a reasonable life without doing so.

Absolutely right. The Shadow (why not a name? lol) likes to use extreme examples, that are not relevant, throwing a big quotes that are also not relevant to the topic and if you relate exactly to his clams, he is not discussing them any further. Not a great style of discussion.

Wojtek W wrote:

Hello dear EXPATS! If you think about difficulties of life in Poland, what would it be?

Hey. You initiate that discussion. Are you going to take part in it?
Pozdrowienia.
M

The Shadow wrote:

Language did not seem to help him.
He'd have been better being more culturally aware.
.

How can you be culturally aware without knowing the language. Where is the place for theater, literature, local jokes, even a stand-up comedy or even without mingling with people of that culture you clam to be aware. In these occasions people exchange day-to-day issues, problems and joys. You can be as scientific as you want, but you will never know the real life or people if you are not trying to have part of the above.

The Shadow wrote:

mas fred wrote:

James has that one nailed.

Polish is the lingua franca. .

Not true. Polish was a lingua franca in areas of Eastern Europe, especially regions that belonged to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Polish was for several centuries the main language spoken by the ruling classes in Lithuania and Ukraine, and the modern state of Belarus. After the Partitions of Poland and the incorporation of most of the Polish areas into the Russian Empire as Congress Poland, the Russian language almost completely supplanted Polish.

The Shadow wrote:

mas fred wrote:

James has that one nailed.

Everyone likes to showboat how he or she can be mistaken for a native of the foreign land they are in. Those that do not showboat, that are content with being a foreigner or may even have language-learning barriers, should not suffer negative aspersions from others.

Just saying.

If you do not want to live within a country and to live with people who are in this country, to get know their customs, literature, jokes, day-to-day struggles and joys. Why going there?
It is not about "suffering negative aspersions". It is about helping with a good advice to enjoy their stay since it was their decision to go to that chosen country. I know that the learning language helps from my experience . !0 years in Germany and 15 years in England. I know Poles there who did not make much effort and are constantly unhappy with their decision and constantly afraid of anything. Starting with the hospitals for example. If the foreigner in any country will stay isolated, fine as well. But then they should not complain about not to be able to integrate, and I read a lot about that on here. So I want to help. If my husband can learn Polish: YOU CAN DO IT AS WELL. Do it and your life will be fun and fulfilled because you will become a part of something YOU have chosen to be.

The defence rests.

The Shadow wrote:

The defence rests.

As said before, you have big statements in ( maybe "on" is correct) your sleeve. But if somebody wants to dispute your broad statements, you redraw.
Shame as I would gladly discuss properly.
You are not a defence, not in my view. You have an opinion and I happen to differ in my opinions. We would be equal partners in discussion would you reply to my comments.
But if you do not want that, thank you anyway for an interesting exchange.
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