Careless about Environment and The Nature are sad things in Indonesia

Enny, hopefully this forum will be just one of many easy ways for you to keep in touch with your homeland.

Of course, you are absolutely right about environmental issues in Indonesia, and since you lived in Bali for a while, and that's where I've been living for the past 16 years, I will limit my comments to Bali only and let others address Java and other parts of Indonesia.

As for Bali there is not doubt that there has been a great deal of improvement since when I first arrived in 1998.  I will highlight some of those:

-Total eradication of bomb fishing.   

Bomb fishing was destroying many of the vital coral reefs around Bali and Bali was headed for ecological disaster unless something was done quickly.  It was.  An excellent public awareness program was launched to educate the fisherman on the effects of bomb fishing which would amount to their suicide, as the fish would all be gone if this continued.  Heavy fines and jail time added an additional incentive for them to stop this practice.  Bomb fishing today is a thing of the past. 

-Recycling plant built in Gianyar

Thanks to the generosity of the Swiss government, the tireless efforts of Mr. David Kuper (a highly regarded Ubud based Swiss expat), and the Ubud Rotary organization, Bali's first recycling plant was established in 2008 and remains operational under the Yayasan Gelombang Udara Segar, aka, Yayasan GUS.  This is just the beginning of other waste management projects underway in most all the Regencies of Bali. 

-Village collection of recyclable material.

Once again spearheaded by a sustained and comprehensive public awareness program, a great many villages throughout Bali now have collection programs in place where collection of recycled material is ongoing and regular.  Newspapers, plastic bottles and tin cans (beverage or food) are now collected and sent to Gianyar or off island for processing.   

-Education

Virtually every public school in Bali now includes courses on environmental issues and proper disposal of waste products.  While private schools have been pushing this issue for some time (as with The Green School), this is now a part of all educational systems in Bali.

There is still much more to do in Bali, and I'm betting elsewhere in Indonesia as well, but at least we are on the right tract and anyone who has been here for the past 16 years will quickly recognize the progress that has already been made.

Enny Frans wrote:

.... Well, i hope by more expat living in Indonesia, they can also give more good influence from their country especially about the environment stuff.

Still, Indonesian have good heart and soul, it just lack of education in some fields, and it sad that one of the field is the nature and environment.

Hi Enny,

Your topic is very good.
What you are experiencing is the difference between civilized (countries like) Belgium and 3rd world countries, the difference between good manners and bad manners, the difference between awareness and unawareness.
Even the most uneducated person in any country knows it's not OK to litter around the house, but why does he still do it? 

With many people, demons in the their head play them.  With poor-minded people, not even the demons want to play them ...

Hi Enny,

Totally agree with you. But I think the incentive needs to come from Government to try to change the way of thinking of the people. Sometimes when we go to the poorer areas the problems of garbage really hits you in the face. But since there is so much poverty in Indonesia it is also understandable that cleanliness and the environment is not foremost on many peoples mind.

Here in Bandung, the new Mayor offered a fixed salary to all the beggars on the streets to keep the city clean, I believe it was about Rp800,000 per month, but they turned down the offer because they can make so much more money from begging. Bandung is not the dirtiest city but one thing that Bandung does suffer from is graffiti, but then with so many universities and a very active young population it is hardly surprising.

Jakarta is both dirty and clean at the same time. The small army of road sweepers and gardeners do a fantastic job but sadly the majority of those living here, don't care about things like dropping litter onto streets or into rivers. The place is getting better but slowly.
There should be in my opinion, a scheme which educates from school age so the children can learn and be taught how  to manage waste better. Whilst the litter pickers and scavengers do clear lots of this away, there are too many people who have no manners or decent behaviours when it comes to dropping litter.
Easy not to care when you drive a big car but the kids follow the parents and see no harm in it and so the cycle continues.
Whilst it is easy to scorn and scoff Jakarta some parts of the city are very clean, some parts are not. It is by its nature, location and history a dirty, unkempt city. You drive from the airport to the SCBD and there is little trash or litter. You go near rivers by Kampungs and the rivers are full of rubbish, but the kampungs are not. It just needs that one step to have people using the trash collectors effectively for it all to stop.
It will one day, but alas, not today.

“What you are experiencing is the difference between civilized (countries like) Belgium and 3rd world countries, the difference between good manners and bad manners, the difference between awareness and unawareness.”

EXCUSE ME! 

For your information, Indonesia is NOT a 3rd world country, rather it a member of the G-20.  Belgium is not a G-20 nation…Germany and France are, but not Belgium. 

Good grief!  Talk about “bad manners” and “unawareness.” 

I've been to Belgium several times and I'll take the kind and genuine manners of the Indonesians any day over your average Belgian. 

Truly John, how insulting!   

No, John was right after all!!!

Indonesia in overall is a 3rd world country, but ubudian perhaps as you are live in bali you have a different story, since bali - apart from other regions of Indonesia -  is a tourist hotspot, so the society in there have to maintain their effectiveness to preserved the main source of income = tourism (besides having their own high value of traditions).    while other regions aren't 

Belgium isn't G20 nation because of their size of country and total populations are relatively small (so less having the potential to generate high amount of total GDP) - of those G20 Nations member (mostly bigger size country and have big total population). 

From what I see in overall Indonesia is a 3rd world country (even though is a member of G20) - except for bali!!! 

Nope, Ubudian is correct. Indonesia is not classified as a 3rd country any more and whilst not first world it is improving in all areas. Indonesia does have a rich poor divide which is very evident but with its GDP, makes it one of the strongest economies in the world.
To label a country 3rd world then the whole country must be labelled thus, and Indonesia cannot be labelled like that.

Yes there is terrible poverty all over the country, but there is also that in Singapore, the USA, the UK and other 1st world countries.

Perhaps look at what is good about Indonesia before you label it something it is not.

“No, John was right after all!!!  Indonesia in overall is a 3rd world country…”

That is ABSOLUTLEY WRONG!

“From what I see in overall Indonesia is a 3rd world country…”

You must have a very bad view from Greece then, because whatever it is that you think you're seeing, just isn't there. 

There is no such thing as first, second or third world classifications for countries.  That went out with the close of the cold war. 

The classifications used today are:  Developed economies or developed nations, developing economies or developing nations, and least developed economies or least developed nations.

Indonesia's UN classification is developing economy or developing nation along with other countries like India, China, Israel, and a host of other countries with high GNP and economies.

Even under the old classification system it would be impossible for a third world country to be a member of the G-20.

It's a good idea to have your facts straight BEFORE you post garbage.   

"There is no such thing as first, second or third world classifications for countries.  That went out with the close of the cold war"

From this lies the tricks    the term 1st, 2nd & 3rd world countries applied to Indonesia cause it isn't an allies of neither 1st or 2nd world countries    but misleaded thoughts are often make the meaning blur by referring to degrees of economic. Say if the term 1st, 2nd & 3rd vanished, then china is no longer 2nd world countries    following Russia  Yes of course there is the new term as described by UN but what it meant by "3rd world" apply to the first mentioned.

Yes there are poverty even in 1st world countries, but in overall mostly are advance rather than poor if compared to 3rd world countries. 

You're partially right in that the old designation, “third world country” was given to any and all countries that were neither allied to the West, or the Soviet block.  It was essentially a meaningless classification.

Today the term “third world country” is more of an insult than anything else and virtually no country on the planet deserves to be ignorantly called as such.

For your information the only reason Greece and Belgium are included under the current classification of developed countries or developed nations is because of their inclusion within the EU-15. 

Personally, I found John's post to be highly offensive, insulting and reeking of abject ignorance and arrogance, as well as being entirely inaccurate.

"You're partially right in that the old designation, “third world country” was given to any and all countries that were neither allied to the West, or the Soviet block.  It was essentially a meaningless classification."

Meaningless to certain extent cause it's a hidden thing as even the west leaders are still aware and in monitor of china's progress not to grow to be 2nd world in advance, thus hegemonying to the west in all of its economics progress. Until it breakdowns of Snowden's matter sheltering in second world.

"Today the term “third world country” is more of an insult than anything else and virtually no country on the planet deserves to be ignorantly called as such"

Not to those who have clear minded, yes to those whose minds are blurred.

"For your information the only reason Greece and Belgium are included under the current classification of developed countries or developed nations is because of their inclusion within the EU-15."

If so, then don't put Greece under current classification of developed countries and don't use Greeks philosophy in western civilazation then. By that every different opinions and debates in here will be settled.

"Personally, I found John's post to be highly offensive, insulting and reeking of abject ignorance and arrogance, as well as being entirely inaccurate."

Nope, it's just that the trick must be cleared, that's all. 

You are way off topic and talking in code…what does this mean…” Nope, it's just that the trick must be cleared, that's all.”

Then again, don't bother answering, because I really don't care.

And btw, just to clear up another of your erroneous statements, tourism is not the main contributor to Bali's economy...rather it is agriculture.

Maybe you're just in the wrong forum?   

"And btw, just to clear up another of your erroneous statements, tourism is not the main contributor to Bali's economy...rather it is agriculture."

Tourism is one of the main as per describe "tourism = engines & streerings of economics growth".  While "agriculture = fuels of economics growth".

Here I am in the topic again 

lleenavan, have you actually been to Indonesia? Or lived here and experienced the actual way of life? Because other wise, how would you actually know what is 3rd world or 1st world here?

Hello Mr. Ubudian, yes i actually notice that Bali is generally cleaner then other part of Indonesia. I lived in Bali for 3 years and my experience to lived there was not that bad. I've been worked there for some foreigner companies where the owners gave me the good impact about the way of thinking in many stuffs, specially for the cleanliness. I am also feel lucky to be able to visited some other countries which maybe 99% or more of other Indonesian never experience it. From there i can see the difference between my country and other countries. Well, doesn't mean Indonesian people are dirty. Back to my hometown (Ambon), most of the houses are very very clean. they also take care of their yard really well. But away from the houses and their yards, in the beach or in the street they don't really care. they made their house really clean, but they don't care how to manage the waste. they throw it away in the rivers, in the bushes, or in the beach,etc. This practice, throwing the rubbish not in the proper place, still happen also in Bali, from what i saw while lived there. by my opinion, Sanur is one of the cleanest place in Bali i think. I rarely saw rubbish and people behave better there. You should visit the Market there as well, it is really amazed me by its cleanliness. It's an indoor market, called pasar Shindu, open in the morning, and outdoor area opened in the night time sells cooked traditional Indonesian food with cheap price.

John C. wrote:

Your topic is very good.
What you are experiencing is the difference between civilized (countries like) Belgium and 3rd world countries, the difference between good manners and bad manners, the difference between awareness and unawareness.(

Last I checked, Indonesia was a civilised country.
Sadly, the rest is about right as far as rubbish is concerned.

Oddly enough, poor education is much of the problem but some of the solution.
Poorly educated people have little awareness of the consequences of littering, especially dumping in rivers but, poorly educated people commonly turn to recycling as a means of earning a living.

Hello Mr. John C. as i said before, it is lack of the education. I am an Indonesian, and i know how people from my country are. The problem are, most of them don't have better information and not well educated like people from other country. many of them don't know what is the effect of throwing rubbish everywhere. and i think the main problem is the government doesn't provide a strict rule, so whoever throw rubbish don't even care. I saw in the news this morning, there were some people organized to collect the rubbish around one of the river in Belgium. because apparently, there were some people throw the rubbish also, like can, and some other kind of trash. so people with bad behavior toward environment are actually exist in every countries, the difference is the behavior of people in this country formed by strict rule since they were born, so the amount of them are rare here, while in Indonesia, this behavior are contagiously spread because there is no rule to manage that.

Hello Mr. MikeWallace, yes, Indonesia is really big country with very complex problems. Out of the rubbish problem, the graffity problem are also annoying, yet the other problem like people just love to cut the trees down everywhere. about the graffity, some people could do crazy good art, but they just put it in the wrong place to express themselves. I visited Bandung 7 years ago, and people from Bandung are really nice and polite and i think less complicated to deal with people there then people in Jakarta that more complex. So i hope government will do something soon there to stop the contagious bad behavior of young generation before the problem become bigger.

MikeWallace77 wrote:

.... Here in Bandung, the new Mayor offered a fixed salary to all the beggars on the streets to keep the city clean, I believe it was about Rp800,000 per month, but they turned down the offer because they can make so much more money from begging. Bandung is not the dirtiest city but one thing that Bandung does suffer from is graffiti, but then with so many universities and a very active young population it is hardly surprising.

Hi Mike,

This is a very nice initiative worth remembering and worth trying in other cities.
Nice that we can hear interesting initiatives and events in this forum! 

P.S. The fact that the beggars refused to work is clear proof of human tendency to lie, do nothing and this way destroy the very environment they live in, depend on others for their upkeep instead of earning a honest dollar.
Filth all over the world is the immediate result of bad mentalities of increasing numbers of paupers.
What happens next is for everybody to talk about it exposing their real inability to remedy the situation and then the fatal blow: getting used to misery ...

John C. wrote:

Enny Frans wrote:

.... Well, i hope by more expat living in Indonesia, they can also give more good influence from their country especially about the environment stuff.

Still, Indonesian have good heart and soul, it just lack of education in some fields, and it sad that one of the field is the nature and environment.

Hi Enny,

Your topic is very good.
What you are experiencing is the difference between civilized (countries like) Belgium and 3rd world countries, the difference between good manners and bad manners, the difference between awareness and unawareness.
Even the most uneducated person in any country knows it's not OK to litter around the house, but why does he still do it? 

With many people, demons in the their head play them.  With poor-minded people, not even the demons want to play them ...

This thread is about people who litter.
If Indonesia is a top country with litter all over the place does it matter how it ranks in the world?

The same desperate situation is where I live: garbage everywhere.  We have regular garbage collection and there is 1 (one) national landfill, but this does not stop individuals from throwing trash all over the place.
Occasionally, when I see somebody throwing a chocolate wrap away in the street, I put on a smiling face and tell the person not to make St. Lucia dirty, and I wink at them.  Some people smile back and actually pick the unwanted wrap up and take it with them.  I tell them 'let's keep beautiful St. Lucia beautiful' and everything turns jovial.

In 1994 I was living in pure rural area in the island.
At one time I was intrigued by hearing thumping sounds at 10 o'clock in the evening repeatedly.  The first time I heard that noise again after that I quickly ran out to see what goes on.  My neighbours were throwing their garbage in plastic bags from their balcony over the road into the ravine.
I told them the following morning not to do that again, and they laughed it off.  They continued disposing of their garbage and then, I reported them to the city department.  An inspector came on site to see how bad the situation became with lots of garbage obstructing the little creek creating high risk of flooding when it rained.  The inspector contacted my neighbours and most likely gave them a sermon on cleanliness.
Their reaction was to shout towards my house and talk loudly among themselves in local patois things like 'who do I think I am', 'they need not to be told what to do' and other similar non-sense.

Not many locals liked me for my correctitude, but somehow, everybody got used to have me around while I NEVER get used to their stupidity.

By the way, I used to put all my household garbage in several plastic bags at the time I lived over there and take it to a big dumpster in the city, a half hour away, twice a week.

That rural area where I lived in 1994 finally got garbage collection one day and things returned to normal.
However, to this day, when my former neighbours see me they still do not talk to me, and I, like always, have no reason to talk to them.

Also, I no longer live in rural areas anymore ... 

Please do not litter around the house .... or somebody else's house!
We expats must not only be concerned about our jobs, but also about how we live together with the locals.
Amen. 

I am a guest in Indonesia. I have no right to tell indonesians how to live nor do I want too. I f they want to create a dirtier world for themselves and then moan about it,well that's up to them. Personally I have better things to do with my time and energy than trying to get the behaviour of my neighbours to reflect one of a western view. Afterall that's the resason I came here for a different perspective, good or bad.

lukereg wrote:

I am a guest in Indonesia. I have no right to tell indonesians how to live nor do I want too. I f they want to create a dirtier world for themselves and then moan about it,well that's up to them. Personally I have better things to do with my time and energy than trying to get the behaviour of my neighbours to reflect one of a western view. Afterall that's the resason I came here for a different perspective, good or bad.

I tend to agree with this version but not totally.
I most definitely would not report my neighbours but I would probably try for a meeting in an attempt to arrange rubbish collection for the community.
Villages here commonly have regular meetings to hammer out problems so I could bring it up and try to help everyone, but upset no one.

“The fact that the beggars refused to work is clear proof of human tendency to lie, do nothing and this way destroy the very environment they live in, depend on others for their upkeep instead of earning a honest dollar.”

I guess it's pretty clear that you don't support any charity or NGO's where you live.  Has it occurred to you that for some folks they don't have any other choice but to resort to begging? 

Are you aware that Indonesia has the second highest unemployment rate in all of SE Asia…the Philippines having the highest?  Are you aware that unlike Europe, the US and other countries there are no social security nets like welfare, food stamps, unemployment benefits or being “on the dole”?  Some folks, for no fault of their own, simply don't have the opportunity to earn “an honest dollar.”

I'm with Luke, although I am not a guest in Indonesia any longer, rather I am a citizen, however I agree that “I have no right to tell Indonesians how to live.”  I also agree with Fred in that the way to effect changes that are vital to the longevity, prosperity, health and welfare of the country in which you live is by respectfully offered constructive suggestions, encouragement and also by personal example. 

“However, to this day, when my former neighbours see me they still do not talk to me, and I, like always, have no reason to talk to them.”

I'm sorry John but I find your philosophy and approach to expatriate living to be appalling in just about every single respect.  There have been expats here in Bali with a similar approach to yours, but they never last more than a few years before the locals make life for them so miserable that they eventually move on.

Hi all,

This thread is going "everywhere".
Could we just calm down and get back to the original topic?

Thanks
Armand
Expat.com Team

I do enjoy this forum very much, but every now and then I get these flashbacks to kindergarten.

Understanding forum moderation very well (been there, done that) I like to think of that role as liken to a host of a cocktail party…no need to get too involved until drinks are being thrown in people's faces or too many guests are stepping outside and the patio furniture is flying all about. 

That's just a thought and I hope that by expressing it I earn nothing more than a yellow card. 

Cheers!

Ed for spelling

Hi Enny & John C.

Yup Bandung is a really nice place, quite cool (both climate wise and also for all the young people with their innovative ideas). I've lived in enough big cities in my lifetime so a change to a smaller and more relaxed place will suit me well. I will be moving there to enjoy the living, the scenery and the food. As for the litter problem, I agree that the general population does need to be educated, but then as an expat I don't really think that Indonesians appreciate foreigners telling them what to do. I will be really happy as Bandung becomes even cleaner than it already is, but I think changing the way people think should come from government campaigns and educating people in schools. For the graffiti, yes there is so much artistic graffiti in Bandung, and yes too often in the wrong places. But overall a really nice place.

Mike

Bandung has lots of trees throughout the city so lots of leaves on the ground. We have a mango tree in a garden but when we rebuild that property we are going to hack it down as it overhangs the road and causes leaf litter and we want the front of the house to look tidy. However, we always support our environment and install bio septic tanks and solar panels.

Bm3 wrote:

Ni hao Mike, zian zai ni zai wan long ma? Wan long hen hao kan ma? Ru guo wo you dian, wo yau qu kan kan zai wan long, hai ya.

Hi, How did you know that I can speak chinese?

This is the English forum so before the moderators come along and have a grumble, take this conversation into your pm world and enjoy.

Thanks

lukereg wrote:

This is the English forum so before the moderators come along and have a grumble, take this conversation into your pm world and enjoy.

Thanks

Good point Luke. I've changed my comment into English so everyone can understand it.

"Hi, How did you know that I can speak chinese?"

From your profile perhaps?

Thanks for your comments Enny Frans concerning the habit of throwing garbage in some parts of Indonesia.

As in Maluku, northern Sulawesi residents also take pride in the area immediately surrounding their residences. Also in the 'kampungs' that make up the cities in Java one sees people sweeping the 'lorongs' directly in front of their houses.

At present local government representatives or civil servants, whether in Bali, Jakarta, Wamena, Aceh, Manado or Halmahera have next to no interest in upkeeping their population's amenities. There is little to no public pressure to do so either. This costs money and unless there are opportunities for graft which are usually gratefully offered by foreign NGO representatives little is usually done in this regard.

Nevertheless, small steps with limited local validity occasionally get undertaken. The aforementioned David Kuper in Bali and Rotary International do good work. Hopefully our local hosts aspiring to a 1st world mindset will incorporate these ideas and maintain the good fight.

We can all only win if this is the case.

“At present local government representatives or civil servants, whether in Bali, Jakarta, Wamena, Aceh, Manado or Halmahera have next to no interest in upkeeping their population's amenities.”

Take Bali off that list and I'll have no argument with you. 

“This costs money and unless there are opportunities for graft which are usually gratefully offered by foreign NGO representatives little is usually done in this regard.”

Can you document any instances of graft being offered by any specific (please name) NGO's?

It is not only low educated. It is careless and negligence. Just look how the beaches here in Bali look after a so called ceremony.

"Just look how the beaches here in Bali look after a so called ceremony."

That depends on the beach and how long after the ceremony you're looking at the beach.

And, why do you call these, "so called" ceremonies anyway?      Living on Bali you should know by now that beaches are where highly important purification ceremonies, particularly after cremations, are held.   

Temples are also a heck of a mess after a ceremony, but they get cleaned up within a couple of days, and so do the beaches after a ceremony...or at least that's the way it is in Gianyar Regency.

Balinese are very gentle people. We should all learn from them and be mild mannered as they are.

I think Bail is generally pretty clean because the locals tidy up each day. Every morning, no matter where you go in Bali you can always see locals sweeping up.

“Balinese are very gentle people. We should all learn from them and be mild mannered as they are.”

I couldn't agree with you more Mike.  After living among them for over 15 years, it rubs off on a person sooner or later.