Does corruption still exist in Indonesia?

As far as Bali is concerned, corruption is as rife as it ever was, and getting worse by the year.  I've seen all kinds of foreigners involved in:

-Drug trafficking.
-Pedophilia.
-Real estate scams including illegal villa rentals.
-Illegal employment.
-Tax avoidance.
-Diving without a license.
-Over extension of visas.
-Unfair employment practices including failure to pay minimum wages.

Is that the kind of corruption you had in mind?  Or were you thinking of that poor cop trying to feed his family who fines you 50 or 100k on the spot for driving a motor bike without a helmet or a proper license?

Or, were you thinking of something you brought up on another string, that being visa agents who get paid to handle the visa application paper work and stand in line etc. for their clients?

Just found some links on the internet for "fast-tracking" through immigration:

http://www.gotobali.nl/airport3.htmlhttp://balifasttrackpassportclearance.com/http://www.fasttrackbali.com/fast-track-service/

Would this kind of thing be considered as corruption or VIP service? And do you think that these companies give a cut to immigration officers? Nowadays I don't need to wait long because we pass through the immigration desks for locals but when I travel alone to Bali I am sometimes approached and asked to pay Rp500,000 for fast tracking through immigration. I remember the days when you could fast-track in Jakarta or Bali for just Rp50,000 or Rp100,000. In anycase, I can only imagine the amount of money exchanging hands for foreigners willing to fast-track to avoid the long queues.

Mike, you need to differentiate from what used to be VIP VOA processing at Ngurah Rai (which is no longer available) and private companies that promise to offer such services. 

On certain Garuda flights from OZ to Bali there is on board, in flight official immigration VOA processing, but that's about it from an Indonesian official or governmental entity.  And, since I haven't looked into that particular service in some time, that might also be a thing of the past today. 

“Would this kind of thing be considered as corruption or VIP service?”

Quite obviously it's VIP service and not corruption. 

Well noted Mike that you continue to avoid my direct question which you yourself raised on another thread…that being about the business of visa agents which you declared as being under the umbrella of your obviously broad and unique definition of corruption.

Also, considering that this topic of corruption in Indonesia has been exhaustively discussed with you already, I (and others) wonder why you feel the need to raise it, yet again?  That thread is here:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=348533

You seem to me to have a personal agenda in mind, and I for one would love to hear any personal stories you might have…not stories you read about on the internet, or heard via hearsay, but personal experience with corruption in Indonesia.

Fair enough?

edited to add link

My parents flew from Singapore into Bali and were fast tracked through Immigration with having to pay anything. Singapore Airlines sorted everything out including the luggage and asked for nothing in return.
I go through Immigration at Jakarta airport a lot and I have not for the last few years had to wait while the officer looks at me expecting me to give him some money for reasons unknown. This seems to have disappeared. The immigration are becoming more professional there and it is beginning to resemble Singapore or Malaysian Immigration now.

The next thing to hope is that they get rid of VOA and the airport tax so there is less hassle at various points of the wonder of flying into and from Indonesia.

“My parents flew from Singapore into Bali and were fast tracked through Immigration with having to pay anything.”

Of course you meant, “without having to pay anything” but obviously that's because of your status as a true “son of Indonesia” Luke!   

“The next thing to hope is that they get rid of VOA and the airport tax…”

What would you replace the VOA with Luke?  The old way…visas obtained in advance through Indonesian embassies or did you mean, to do away with the $25 charge?

As things sit now, virtually 100% of that VOA charged in Bali goes directly to Jakarta.  Not one single IDR is kept here in Bali.   I've been bending Mangku Pastika's ear for a long time…double the VOA which will help reduce back packers here (nominal economic benefit), and keep half of a $50 VOA for Bali. 

Obviously, when you come to Bali you aren't subject to any VOA anyway. 

As for airport taxes, who doesn't have them?  Many airports get their tax income through airline ticketing, so it's not noticed by the traveler, Indonesia doesn't.  Thailand is in the same boat…you pay a departure (airport) tax.

ed for spelling...American spelling that is!

lukereg wrote:

My parents flew from Singapore into Bali and were fast tracked through Immigration with having to pay anything. Singapore Airlines sorted everything out including the luggage and asked for nothing in return.
I go through Immigration at Jakarta airport a lot and I have not for the last few years had to wait while the officer looks at me expecting me to give him some money for reasons unknown. This seems to have disappeared. The immigration are becoming more professional there and it is beginning to resemble Singapore or Malaysian Immigration now.

The next thing to hope is that they get rid of VOA and the airport tax so there is less hassle at various points of the wonder of flying into and from Indonesia.

We usually get fast tracked too as most of my family have indonesian  passports and we have very young children. Ngurah Rai is great for helping the old and very young to go through quickly.

Ubudian wrote:

Mike, you need to differentiate from what used to be VIP VOA processing at Ngurah Rai (which is no longer available) and private companies that promise to offer such services. 

On certain Garuda flights from OZ to Bali there is on board, in flight official immigration VOA processing, but that's about it from an Indonesian official or governmental entity.  And, since I haven't looked into that particular service in some time, that might also be a thing of the past today. 

“Would this kind of thing be considered as corruption or VIP service?”

Quite obviously it's VIP service and not corruption. 

Well noted Mike that you continue to avoid my direct question which you yourself raised on another thread…that being about the business of visa agents which you declared as being under the umbrella of your obviously broad and unique definition of corruption.

Also, considering that this topic of corruption in Indonesia has been exhaustively discussed with you already, I (and others) wonder why you feel the need to raise it, yet again?  That thread is here:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=348533

You seem to me to have a personal agenda in mind, and I for one would love to hear any personal stories you might have…not stories you read about on the internet, or heard via hearsay, but personal experience with corruption in Indonesia.

Fair enough?

edited to add link

Hi Ubudian,

No personal agenda at all and thank you for your opinion, and all opinions on whether corruption exists in Indonesia or not are most welcome.

Fast tracking also applies to Indonesians who wish to apply for passports and for guaranteeing that you pass your driving test and get a driving license. If you don't pay the "fast-track" money then you may or may not get your driving license, but paying it guarantees you will get it. I have no idea about how that works in Bali but it happens in Java.

By the way, My family and I often pay fast-track money. We do not see it as corruption whether somebody from immigration or another government department makes money from it or not. We see it simply as a convenience and a way of life here.

“No personal agenda at all and thank you for your opinion, and all opinions on whether corruption exists in Indonesia or not are most welcome.”

Good to hear there is no agenda in your mind because it did seem that way in earlier postings.  But, no worries, I got it now, and thanks for clarifying. 

IMHO, and you are certainly welcome to disagree, there are opinions, and there are opinions again.  When opinions come from someone who has spent the last 16 years of their life totally immersed in the local culture, living here 24/7 as opposed to living in all sorts of other places in Asia and SE Asia…well…you can see where I'm headed.  And, when that opinion is further supported by another person of similar background…(referring to Pak Fred), well, once again you can see where I am headed.

Just so you know, I am not an expat.  I hold my Indonesian KTP, as for me, and given all of many personal reasons, this only made eventual sense.  Oddly enough I've been issued KP's (voting cards) for the past five years although I've never once voted, and I've been a full voting member of my village Banjar for the past 10 years (again, never once voting but having plenty to say).  Along those lines of having plenty to say I can take pride in finally getting a new adat provision in our village which makes it almost impossible to outright sell, as opposed to lease, any of our village land to outsiders.  Bali, tidak di jual. Bunutan, tidak kampung nama Buletan. 

Our three sons hold dual citizenship and whatever they decide at age 18 is their call but my wife and I are pretty sure what their call will be.  It is my three sons, and their incredible birth right…as Balinese/Indonesian that I most concern myself with these days, and I doubt that will ever change.

I provide that personal information only to give you a bit of insight as to where my mind set is these days.

Cheers!

Ah yes, Ubudian you are right. 'Not having to pay anything as in no bribe or extra money or even a tip'. I would like the $25 dollar VOA to disappear or transform into something else. The 30 day visa is not as useful as other countries which have 90 days or 60.
I think Indonesia needs to be a little welcoming to all and removing this process could be a small step. Financially it may lose in the short term but longer stay visas mean that money would be recapped ultimately and more.

But Luke, the 30 day VOA can easily be extended for another 30 days at any immigration office, and if a visitor wants to come here for a longer stay than 60 days, they can apply for a 60 day visit visa at any Indonesian embassy or consulate, and that visa can also be extended here in country…up to four times, each time good for an additional 30 days for a total continuous visit in country of 180 days. 

The flip side to the coin you would like to see is the increased risk of visa abuse and folks staying here for long durations working illegally.  That is already a major problem in Bali, and relaxing visa regulations would only compound it.

Sorry, but I vote a firm NO on the idea of relaxing current visa regulations.

Fair enough, but I still think it should be relaxed for the British. No one else. Just us. Not the Welsh though nor anyone from the Isle of Man. They are weird.

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lukereg wrote:

Fair enough, but I still think it should be relaxed for the British. No one else. Just us. Not the Welsh though nor anyone from the Isle of Man. They are weird.

Probably not for the Scotitish if they vote for independance 

The Scots would be mad to do so. They would lose more than the rest of the UK and would lose a lot credibility and financial aid.

lukereg wrote:

The Scots would be mad to do so. They would lose more than the rest of the UK and would lose a lot credibility and financial aid.

Yeah but Sean Connery will be happy!!! 

Ubudian wrote:

“No personal agenda at all and thank you for your opinion, and all opinions on whether corruption exists in Indonesia or not are most welcome.”

Good to hear there is no agenda in your mind because it did seem that way in earlier postings.  But, no worries, I got it now, and thanks for clarifying. 

IMHO, and you are certainly welcome to disagree, there are opinions, and there are opinions again.  When opinions come from someone who has spent the last 16 years of their life totally immersed in the local culture, living here 24/7 as opposed to living in all sorts of other places in Asia and SE Asia…well…you can see where I'm headed.  And, when that opinion is further supported by another person of similar background…(referring to Pak Fred), well, once again you can see where I am headed.

Just so you know, I am not an expat.  I hold my Indonesian KTP, as for me, and given all of many personal reasons, this only made eventual sense.  Oddly enough I've been issued KP's (voting cards) for the past five years although I've never once voted, and I've been a full voting member of my village Banjar for the past 10 years (again, never once voting but having plenty to say).  Along those lines of having plenty to say I can take pride in finally getting a new adat provision in our village which makes it almost impossible to outright sell, as opposed to lease, any of our village land to outsiders.  Bali, tidak di jual. Bunutan, tidak kampung nama Buletan. 

Our three sons hold dual citizenship and whatever they decide at age 18 is their call but my wife and I are pretty sure what their call will be.  It is my three sons, and their incredible birth right…as Balinese/Indonesian that I most concern myself with these days, and I doubt that will ever change.

I provide that personal information only to give you a bit of insight as to where my mind set is these days.

Cheers!

Thanks for your background. I already considered you as more or less a Balinese  We also have Balinese family in Negara.

For me, my children hold Indonesian and British passports and we own properties in Bandung and we just renovated a house for my in-laws and the house next door will be demolished and rebuilt for us as we plan to move back to Bandung this year or next year. Our kids may go to an International School or perhaps have a local education, although anyone who reads the BBC news may know that Indonesia along with Mexico and Brazil have the lowest ranked education systems in the world, so that is something we will need to consider when choosing a school.

As for corruption, I think everyone wants to see it wiped out as much as possible but I think it will be difficult. The high profile cases are certainly interesting to follow and good to see those big shots get locked up. As for fast-tracking, it's a way of life here and I mean for locals rather than foreigners whether it's paying to guarantee a passed driving test and driving license to getting a local passport in a few hours instead of waiting several days. Same with processing documents when buying property (I recommend using a professional and competent notaris). We are lucky to have a young new Mayor in Bandung, I met him and he is someone educated overseas with great ideas for the city. We have public parks with free wifi, they will build a skywalk in the commercial centre, renovate the airport, beautify the city with more landscaping, they have made it illegal to give money to beggars and if caught you will be fined Rp1 juta. He also told me that he wants to wipe out corruption. We will see about the corruption but right now it is still there in a big way.

Terrific news re: implementation of new policies by Bandung government.

This means we have ok to good governance in Solo, Surabaya, Bandung and Jakarta. Now all we need is for more provincial governments to follow suit.

Note that all these places are major cities in Java. Do any members know of acceptable to good city administrations in the rest of Indonesia?

It appears that Manado was cleared of criminals and rubbish several years ago. Did other public amenities also improve there?

Generally though and going on what one reads in the English language Indonesian press the corruption cases being uncovered appear to never end.

The KPK is taken seriously though and that is a start.

"Shetland is different. We have Viking blood in our veins," said the procession's magnificently bearded chief Viking, or Jarl — by day a local authority housing officer named Keith Lobban.

Says it all really

Just check this out: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q … 0bali&sm=1

You'll find that the vast majority of expats on Bali don't mind handing over 50K or 100K to a policeman here when cited for a legitimate reason…no helmet when on a bike, no, or expired license, going the wrong way on a one way street…whatever.

The alternative is to get a ticket, proceed to the police station and waste endless hours only to have the same result…50K, 100K out of pocket.  Or, of course you can refuse to pay the ticket at the police station and be held over for trial and not only pay the 50 or 100K, but court costs as well.     

Tourists who have any common sense appreciate this even more, since their time on Bali is generally very limited.

Come on gentlemen, let's keep this forum calm and respect that each of us has a different opinion as well as the right to express his or her own opinion.

500k for jumping a red light on a motorbike, 500k for being in the wrong part of the road. Things are a changing in Jakarta and the police are less likely to take the bribe now.

"Come on gentlemen, let's keep this forum calm and respect that each of us has a different opinion as well as the right to express his or her own opinion."

What's the problem Mike?   

Why the need for that off topic comment?

BTW, this forum is very well moderated, as you surely are aware, so let's leave moderation type of comments up to the moderators.

My husband and I have some experiences regarding corrupt Police officers in Bali and immigration officers in Jakarta airport.

We went to Bali many times during 2011-2012 and we rented cars and motorbikes. The Police never stopped us when we drove the car around Bali for a week tour, but more than 3 officers (3 different roads) stopped us when we rode the bike just to go to the nearest beach and fined us 1 mio in total for law breaking that we didnt do..
First is "crossing the White line that separates the lanes" second is "crossing the road when the light is red". When I confronted the officer and say it was still green Light when we crossed and that other drivers and riders crossed with us, the police just didnt respond. He fleed with his bike after he took 500 thou from us.

When we arrived at jakarta airport from Korea, they held us in the immigration Office because my husband didnt have return Ticket (the Airline staff in Korea didnt provide us with that Information and my husband came in to JKT many times before without return ticket), anyways, the guy gave back the passport at the end, it was late at night, we were held for over an hour. But when he stamped the passport, he said to me in bahasa Indonesia " ini saya bantu ya bu, kalau ketahuan atasan bisa di pecat saya. Tapi saya mau bantu" and giving me that Signal that he was expecting something from me. But I didnt give him anything, we walked away after the passport was in my hand.

My husband also over paid his VOA one time because he used Euro. Lessons learned, just have to be smarter and more careful.

Ubudian wrote:

You'll find that the vast majority of expats on Bali don't mind handing over 50K or 100K to a policeman here when cited for a legitimate reason…no helmet when on a bike, no, or expired license, going the wrong way on a one way street…whatever.

The alternative is to get a ticket, proceed to the police station and waste endless hours only to have the same result…50K, 100K out of pocket.  Or, of course you can refuse to pay the ticket at the police station and be held over for trial and not only pay the 50 or 100K, but court costs as well.     

Tourists who have any common sense appreciate this even more, since their time on Bali is generally very limited.

So, you obviously defend such attituded. Congratulation! You learned a lot since here.

I asked this already: what school your sons are attending?

“So, you obviously defend such attituded. Congratulation! You learned a lot since here.”

Since I've never once handed over an IDR to a policeman, I guess I have learned a lot here.  You see, I have a Balinese driver at all times.      

“I asked this already: what school your sons are attending?”

And I answered that already, the answer being in essence, “none of your business.”

Thanks, that is answer enough.

Not to get involved in this argument, but I think the police usually target tourists and then mostly in the Kuta area. Obviously showing them your KITAP or whatever you have, they probably leave you alone and also you live in Gianyar area which is quiet. I also think that police don't just target motorcyclists without helmets or driving the wrong way, anyone who looks like a tourist who stops at a traffic light is fair game. And I also think that due to Bali being a tourist hotspot it gets more of this problem than any other part of Indonesia.

We can say that asking for Rp50k or Rp100k is not very much, but if such policemen could do this 10 times a day for most days, they can accumulate quite a bit of cash.

I fully agree with your point and really do not understand who can defend this kind of attitudes. The "poor" underpaid policeman gets his pocket money, but what about the slum people? Where do they get it from?

Dr. MichaelBeer wrote:

I fully agree with your point and really do not understand who can defend this kind of attitudes. The "poor" underpaid policeman gets his pocket money, but what about the slum people? Where do they get it from?

Yes there are so many very poor people struggling to survive in Bali as well as allover Indonesia. Most of us don't see them in Bali but they live in the backstreets of Kuta, Sanur, Denpasar...everywhere. I would rather that those billions of rupiah that some call "pocket money" for policemen be used to help the poor rather than to help some policeman buy a Toyota Jeep or a big new house.

thank you very much. that was exactly what I meant

You would have to be pretty naïve to think that the police in Bali are shaking down “slum people” on motor bikes. 

Obviously neither of you understand that 99.9% of the police on Bali are in fact Balinese.  The exceptions are some high ranking officers and junior officers who graduated from the academy in Java and are on a fast track for promotions.

Next time you're in Bali Mike I'll be happy to take you on a tour of those “back streets” you mention and show you some of the most wonderful Balinese compounds you can imagine. 

Each day at sunrise in Ubud four or five bemos arrive from Kintamani at the market bringing down a mixed group of beggars, usually with a child or two in tow, to ply their trade of begging.  Most all come from Surabaya in eastern Java or other parts of Java and some from Lombok.  The Balinese leave them alone, and I've often seen Balinese giving a hand out myself. 

The areas of Bali where there is real poverty among the Balinese is East Bali and in many villages in and around Singaraja. 

Poverty is a serious problem world wide, including some of the richest countries on earth, so it should be no surprise that a great deal of work still needs to be done here.   

I personally know quite a number of police, there are several in my wife's family.  None of them are running around in brand new cars, and for your information, the Balinese don't live in houses.  They live in family compounds, a great many of them being several centuries old.

I'll be there quite soon actually but I won't have time for guided tours. Actually I know Gianyar is nice. I've been visiting all around there since 1981 and pretty much every year since. Also, I don't think Gianyar is representative of the rest of Bali. I've never been stopped by the police in Gianyar or anywhere above Denpasar.

Ubudian wrote:

You would have to be pretty naïve to think that the police in Bali are shaking down “slum people” on motor bikes. 

Obviously neither of you understand that 99.9% of the police on Bali are in fact Balinese.  The exceptions are some high ranking officers and junior officers who graduated from the academy in Java and are on a fast track for promotions.

Next time you're in Bali Mike I'll be happy to take you on a tour of those “back streets” you mention and show you some of the most wonderful Balinese compounds you can imagine. 

Each day at sunrise in Ubud four or five bemos arrive from Kintamani at the market bringing down a mixed group of beggars, usually with a child or two in tow, to ply their trade of begging.  Most all come from Surabaya in eastern Java or other parts of Java and some from Lombok.  The Balinese leave them alone, and I've often seen Balinese giving a hand out myself. 

The areas of Bali where there is real poverty among the Balinese is East Bali and in many villages in and around Singaraja. 

Poverty is a serious problem world wide, including some of the richest countries on earth, so it should be no surprise that a great deal of work still needs to be done here.   

I personally know quite a number of police, there are several in my wife's family.  None of them are running around in brand new cars, and for your information, the Balinese don't live in houses.  They live in family compounds, a great many of them being several centuries old.

“Also, I don't think Gianyar is representative of the rest of Bali.”

You're right, it isn't.  Gianyar is representative of the real Bali, along with several other regencies.     

All points from Denpasar south is “Disney Land Bali” or tourist Bali.

Actually I agree with you there, for the most part. Although calling the temples at Uluwatu and Tanah Lot which are south of Denpasar "Disney land Bali" is not very nice. They may be over commercialized but they are still an important part of Bali and it's religion. But also Gianyar is a lot more commercial than it used to be and Ubud seems pretty touristy to me with all it's galleries and souvenir shops and food joints geared towards the tourists. Let's face it, all Bali profits from tourism. Let's just say that Gianyar is more commercial than much of unspoilt Bali but is still far less commercial than south of Denpasar.

Ubudian wrote:

“Also, I don't think Gianyar is representative of the rest of Bali.”

You're right, it isn't.  Gianyar is representative of the real Bali, along with several other regencies.     

All points from Denpasar south is “Disney Land Bali” or tourist Bali.