Dating/Marriage to Expats

HOT thread!!!

Xuyen,
   I have no intentions of having a maid, but enjoy doing these things together with my bride. The way I look at it I helped make it dirty so what should I not help clean it. I know how to clean, cook, bake, sew and do all of the things associated with the home, and my mother taught me at an early age. I have nothing against those that have maids and house staff. I too have tried it. No doubt it makes for an easy life for both the man and wife. But for me it is difficult to always have someone in your home. It introduces a whole host of other problems.
  It is simply my own personal choice to do these things. While we don't need the money, my bride wants to continue working as she finds it stimulates her mind. Choices...we all make choices.

Xuyen,
   Yes, this brings up another very interesting cultural difference between us. I thought I was the king of frugality until I met my bride. Now that is the definition of frugality there. I just love to watch her in action. Prior to this there was no way I would turn my family budget over to an American wife.
In VN it is so nice to give her the money and let her handle it. I am loving and saving a ton of money to boot. Do you have any background knowledge of where this custom comes from?

Indeed, it is a HOT thread. A very good one. I wish we could get more ladies to join in. This is similar to the "Vietnamese wives?" in popularity. One can gain a lot of insight.

sorry Wild 1, but what does a real xpat look and behave like? from my experience VN is a great place to live apart from some people complaining about the litter, when Aus looks like a tip in some burbs and some judging others life choices because they think the west has it all together( greedy suckers) and yet others being judged for holding on to thier morrals, and the top 1 the reverence VN has for the aged people weve lost this 1. I fell in love with place from top to bottom, and if it wasn't for mum I would sell up and come to stay (if they would let me) dont get me wrong , I just want to know, yeh!

Hi Everyone,

I'd like to put the following summary to you:

. Sex values are down to individuals. Some people will have sex before marriage others will not.  It is their choice and they set their own standards. Never be pressured, if you feel pressured then it is wrong and you should walk away.
. Expats move to Asia for several reasons, it may be work, better weather, a more laid back life style, their money will last longer or as seems to be the case, older men can meet younger women where they could not back home. If it wasn't beneficial for both parties it wouldn't work. If they are happy then leave them to it.
. In most parts of the West, women are treated as equals and the last few areas they are not are being fought to be changed as I type, so Western men do housework and shopping and child care, it is normal to us.  This is an attraction for many Asian women.  Asian men don't always like this, but if you don't you know what to do:  Treat your ladies better and equally.
. Sadly, I have to admit many Expats are dodgy business men so be aware. Maybe search them online on LinkedIn or Facebook and reassure yourself of the person you have met.  See if they really do what they say or are married.

I'd like to finish with the statement that:  Everyone is different, treat each new encounter with as much caution as you feel is necessary. There are dishonest people all over the world and we will all probably get burnt in our lives.  But if you are a little cautious and take your time to get to know someone then it is less likely to happen. 

I wish you all the best and hope to maybe meet some of you when I come to Saigon and hopefully create a better impression of expats.  I'm into sport and acoustic guitar so any tips send me a message.

All the best

Tony

Tony,
   I hope the take away for you is not that expats are bad. I've lived in 62 countries. What we discuss here goes on in each and everyone of them. There is only one commonality I see in it all.....they are all human. Bet you bottom dollar, or Dong whatever the case may be, all of us will make mistakes.
Yet, for me my most valuable lessons have been taught through mistakes. I can sight mistake after mistake. But it is hard to recall all the triumphs in my life. I suspect after this discussion ends they will still be selling pencils with erasers on them. Just in case they stop I think I will go out and but myself a gross now!!

.

ancientpathos wrote:

Xuyen Hoang wrote:

Acientpathos: you seem VERY rich. No many people are as lucky as you are..

Here I am rich, in the USA I am just another poor bastard.

I know "rich" is a relative term, meaning, you can be rich in Vietnam but poor in America simply because of the buying power of the dollar.  For example, you can work "digging ditches" for 10 bucks an hour and be considered poor at home but in Vietnam you'd make more money than a banker ($10/hr *160hrs/month = $1,600 = 32 million VND).

But as an expat who is "stereotyped" as being rich simply because you're lucky to be born American, do you feel hard to integrate and interact with the average locals?  Do you ever feel like you're a cash cow, to be milked for your dollars?

[I don't want to hijack this thread so maybe a moderator could move this to a new topic]

Agree, and gettin a little off subject. Very interesting topic though. Can't wait for summer to jump back in with her view that VNese are under pressure to marry. I'm really more interested in our lady friends viewpoints. We can argue about how terrible one expat is and how pius another is all day.
Go to the Middle East and we could continue the same conversation...good and bad everywhere you go/ Then there are a few above it all

bta87 wrote:

Ancient,
   I'm with you on that. This one thing I enjoy about VN, and maybe I don't know enough, but their values are much better than ours. They are back were we were when I was a young man. For me it is refreshing.

I believe the American culture was at it's best before World War II.  War changes people for the worse as it is easier and faster to destroy than to build.

bta87 wrote:

Sweet_Summer
   Can you expand on your thought for us "This is really important for Vietnamese because we face a lot of marriage pressure"
   What kind of pressure and who is it that is under pressure from whom. This is perhaps interesting. I met a girl who SAID that her parents gave an edict "if she did not get married soon, they would marry her off to someone of their choosing by December". Would something like this happen in VN?
Is this the type of pressure you speak of?

I mainly experience things in Hanoi.

I think your example is kind of extreme . Most of the times the pressure is subtle by the way people ask about your status, by your parents feeling sad when they are invited to someone's weddings, by people talking to you that you should go to some monks to pray for a husband ).

I think many times the pressure is on by ourselves because we don't want to be different. For girls, many marry at the age of 25 - 27, past that age and you already feel different in society's eyes. Of course not everybody is the same and I know a lot of exceptions from the rules.

The convention in Hanoi is to have a sweetheart from school time, or fresh from school, then get married after one or two years of dating. After the conventional marriage age (which is below 30 for both boys and girls), most people will date with marriage mindset, quickly scan through those who do not have intention for marriage, and may get married to someone with only one or two months of dating. I don't agree to get marriage just for the sake of marriage, but it works for some people.

ancientpathos wrote:

Xuyen Hoang wrote:

Ancient and bta87: im glad that you guys are enjoying living here. Of course who doesnt want to live that relaxing life.. But what I meant was not everyone had enough money to waste on hiring someone to do all those stuffs for them while they could do it themselves.

You are right, not everybody can.  But that does not make us lazy or disrespectful if we prefer to spend our money this way. There is a big part of saving money and doing things yourself in this culture.  I have been on dates where the young lady did not want to eat somewhere because she thought it was expensive and she did not want me to spend money.  I appreciated her concern, but I wanted a nice place to relax and enjoy the date.

I really enjoy these discussions.

There's a thought process in the business world that's called "time is money".  Simply put, ancientpathos, could cook, clean and go shopping to save $200, or he could spend that same amount of time doing something else that has a higher value than $200. 

There's a reason CEO's don't drive themselves around in a car; they hire drivers.  The CEO is free to use that time, which he would not have if he was driving himself around, to be on the phone, think, plan, strategize, or otherwise make more money.  Plus he's giving his driver a job.  Otherwise that driver would be unemployed and might steal things to survive.

In ancientpathos' case, he could be giving a poor beggar an opportunity, i.e. job, to better themselves in life on a $200 a month salary.  And his time can be freed up to do more valuable things for society.....like posting on Expat.coms.  (Hope I made you laugh and that laugh is worth more than $200 to you).

About the topic of expats saying loving girls one day and running away when you ask for marriage. I don't think they are the bad guys at all, I think it is just a matter of culture differences. I am sure there are guys who mislead girls to believe in the marriage path; some guys may already be married themselves and only want to have fun. But from my experiences most people, both expats and Vietnamese, don't lie about these things. Feelings can be changed; they might think the future will not work out due to differences, etc. And people have the right to decide whether you are right for them or not. You have that same right too

Traditional Vietnam: love --> marriage. Otherwise is a failure. I think we experience fewer heartbreaks in our lifetimes.
Western culture: the path to marriage takes time; so many heartbreaks along the way. But heartbreaks do not mean failure; and marriage is not the only path to happiness.

bta87 wrote:

Xuyen,
...
In VN it is so nice to give her the money and let her handle it. I am loving and saving a ton of money to boot. Do you have any background knowledge of where this custom comes from?

Thousands of Chinese rule and the introduction of Confucianism in society.  Most oriental societies have this custom.  It shows guidance on the duties and responsibilities of a person to family and society (in this case wife to husband). 

You should read up on it to figure out what you need to do in return for you wife...but generally if you're providing for your wife and children with resources to live a righteous life (i.e. money earned legitimately), you're on the right track.  I would think the western concept of "chivalry" comes to mind as to what you should do.

Well I would perhaps disagree with the war issue as the pivotal point of the decline of American society. But perhaps I should not. Lets start another thread if you wish. That way we can keep this topic, a wonderful one I might add, in focus. I would only say I ain't no spring chicken, and I feel the decline started for manifold reasons. The advent of the two parent working family and the race toward material things probably launched it. Then too the "do what make YOU feel good" days of the hippy period. really sent moral values into a tailspin. With free LOVE with anyone. No doubt wars damage in a psychological way though. But the world has always been at war, yet we had a modicum of moral values throughout, no?

Sweet_summer your a very wise person. I'm glad to see you back in the conversation. Can you expand on what you said yesterday e.g. We vietnamese are under a lot of pressure to marry? I would love to hear your thoughts on this. This is rather a foreign concept to Westerners I think.

My Bad Summer,
   I did not realize you had already replied to my question. I heard tell of some of this. One girl told me that her mother felt she had thrown sand in her face by being married yet. I've been told that in the village towns they really push them into marriage at a very young age. An age that would get you a felony conviction in some Western societies. Thanks for the wonderful insight into your culture. Stick around, tell us more. As Ross Perot would say "I'm all ears"

bta87 I think what you said is true for country side, I know some of my far relatives married at the age of 18.  And there after marriage pressure, next is pressure for a baby boy. I live in Hanoi and the culture value is changing fast here . Pressure still exists but in a much lesser degree.

Mark Stutley wrote:

but what does a real xpat look and behave like?

A real expat is someone who looks right at home, in his own skin, regardless of where he may be.  Thus, every time when he steps out, he speaks nothing but the truth; and when he encounters people of different social values or economic standings, he appreciates them for providing him with more angles to view life with.  In short, a real expat sees a glass as half full, not half empty.

Also, a real expat knows better than to judge a people based upon those he has met in bars or at the work place; and he never asks silly questions like why people lock up their valuables or why they are wary of strangers.

Last but not least, a real expat knows that finding the "right" person is tough business, even in his home country.  Therefore, when he is thousands of miles away, he engages the opposite sex with great cautions.  He never jumps into bed with a girl, on the first date, unless he pays; and he would never tie the knot with a girl who is not, at the very least, his social equal.  He knows that crossing the cultural and political divides takes at least two.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

ancientpathos wrote:

Xuyen Hoang wrote:

Ancient and bta87: im glad that you guys are enjoying living here. Of course who doesnt want to live that relaxing life.. But what I meant was not everyone had enough money to waste on hiring someone to do all those stuffs for them while they could do it themselves.

You are right, not everybody can.  But that does not make us lazy or disrespectful if we prefer to spend our money this way. There is a big part of saving money and doing things yourself in this culture.  I have been on dates where the young lady did not want to eat somewhere because she thought it was expensive and she did not want me to spend money.  I appreciated her concern, but I wanted a nice place to relax and enjoy the date.

I really enjoy these discussions.

There's a thought process in the business world that's called "time is money".  Simply put, ancientpathos, could cook, clean and go shopping to save $200, or he could spend that same amount of time doing something else that has a higher value than $200. 

There's a reason CEO's don't drive themselves around in a car; they hire drivers.  The CEO is free to use that time, which he would not have if he was driving himself around, to be on the phone, think, plan, strategize, or otherwise make more money.  Plus he's giving his driver a job.  Otherwise that driver would be unemployed and might steal things to survive.

I am laughing...

In ancientpathos' case, he could be giving a poor beggar an opportunity, i.e. job, to better themselves in life on a $200 a month salary.  And his time can be freed up to do more valuable things for society.....like posting on Expat.coms.  (Hope I made you laugh and that laugh is worth more than $200 to you).

Those that feel they are a better expat than another might do well to understand just who they truly are by definition;
Expatriates=Working overseas, emigrant, nonnative,migrant,living abroad

No mention of what a REAL expat knows what to do or how to judge. Only that they exist in a country other than their mother country. So welcome to VN all you expats!!!

to summarize Howie's diatribe an expat is not a pedophile/pervert.

Wild_1 wrote:

Mark Stutley wrote:

but what does a real xpat look and behave like?

A real expat is someone who looks right at home, in his own skin, regardless of where he may be.  Thus, every time when he steps out, he speaks nothing but the truth; and when he encounters people of different social values or economic standings, he appreciates them for providing him with more angles to view life with.  In short, a real expat sees a glass as half full, not half empty.

Also, a real expat knows better than to judge a people based upon those he has met in bars or at the work place; and he never asks silly questions like why people lock up their valuables or why they are wary of strangers.

Last but not least, a real expat knows that finding the "right" person is tough business, even in his home country.  Therefore, when he is thousands of miles away, he engages the opposite sex with great cautions.  He never jumps into bed with a girl, on the first date, unless he pays; and he would never tie the knot with a girl who is not, at the very least, his social equal.  He knows that crossing the cultural and political divides takes at least two.

My answer to the OP's question (Now I want to see the table turns, what are the things that the Vietnamese girls should be aware of when dating with people from a foreign cultures?) is:

Firstly I hate to generalize people or anything, you'll always find exceptions. This said, what I often see is the cultural clash in a Vnese/Western relationship. Maybe not so much between the two, but with other family members…

Until I met my wife, I never thought I'd ever get married to a Vnese. In may early days in VN I was told that only “bad” girls would date a Westerner. A good girl was a con gái nhà lành and would never go out with “me“, my friends told me so (in 1995). Nearly ten years later I met my wife when she studied Hotel Management in Europe. She hates it when I say that con gái nhà lành word, she is a different generation and they have developed to a more open or modern understanding of partnerships as well as going to bed with a boyfriend and not waiting until marriage.
MTV and all brought a new thinking and now it seems normal to even see girls using half naked pics to put up as avatar instead of wearing an ao dai. Now my wife would never post such pictures on a forum, but she has no problems going for a swim topless here in Europe which she would never dare to do in VN. She loves this kind of freedom here in the West.

I guess times have changed and I sometimes wonder how some of these old-fashioned parents think about their daughters.

Anyway, from my own experience I know that the following can be a problem in such a relationship.
While I adapt quite well to the customs and traditions of VN, I see many other guys in a similar position as mine struggling to the point that they prefer to spend 2 weeks out of 3 of their annual Asia vacations in Thailand or far away from the family. They seldom speak the language and rarely understand the traditions which creates a huge gap!
Problems may also start with family hierarchy and authority, in the west we are told to think and find out ourselves. In Asia you listen to your parents and never ever disrespect what they say, regardless what, they are always right!
Next, some Vnese expect that a Westerner should also follow or at least respect certain rules or the family may be doomed unlucky, such as worshipping ancestors, praying at new year and so on. 
If a Vnese girl dreams of marring a Westerner, she should know that such issues may cause trouble with her family if her husband can‘t adapt.

Then there is the other issue of the foreign land. I saw a few couples who met in VN and got married. Later the husband needed to go back to Europe (if f.e. the company sent him back). The wife would fall into depression because she felt all alone. While the husband goes to work, she sits in isolation, especially if she hits the ground during winter. No friends, does not know where to go, food is very different and life often becomes very boring if they fail to integrate or find a job/hobby.

I never had these problems because I met my wife way after she ever came to Europe and I knew quite a bit about her home country and traditions. We fitted well and could help one another adapt easily to such things as family relationship and inter family communication.

I may add, that in quite a few other cases I saw and see how the couples live a happy life, having kids, visiting family regularly and even bringing the parents fromVN to the West. Very nice, but it needs both sides to be able to adjust to the other and understand the traditions.

I would advise any Vnese woman to first travel with her to-be-husband and see that place and country before getting married. If that is not possible because you don't want to or can't because your family has a problem, then better go look for a good VN husband and in any case, I doubt you'd ever find the perfect love if you go and hunt for it, it happens or not. 
Also, don't think if a Western guy wants to date you, he also wants to marry you, even if he loves you! In the West it is normal to have unmarried couples living together for years, even have kids and no-one says they are strange folks, it is normal to have a girlfriend and go on vacation, sleep with her and maybe, if everything fits, then they get married.

Oh and don't think money can make you happy, you'll always be poor if you think so!

sweet summer, All is cool, it is like i said, so important to talk , be open if you see any walls , be scared keep digging, if you hear alarm bells run, lots of options with others. good thread!!!

Thanks Wild 1,I can see your not a used nappy , you think before openning your mouth, much appreciated, mark

Tran Hung Dao: pffff... you don't get the point Mr while your English is quite good. I agree if people can use that 200$ to make better ones then why don't they hire someone to make their life easier. 200$ just for time laughing here?!... Seriously?!... You must be a millionaire lol I'm sorry if I've annoyed you by repeating my words again "not many people are as rich as you are"

bta87,
I'm not sure about where that custom comes from to be honest. It might be the culture that we have been observing from last generations I think. The husbands farmed, made money while the wives stayed at home took care of children, cooked and saved money for necessary expenses to make their families lived better. Years by years the later generations just follow it. By doing this, it built the thoughts that men were the most important persons in families cause they always had to do big things, could earn money while women expended it. That's why guys who have old traditonal Vietnamese thoughts never respect and treat ladies well. But nowadays that thoughts have been changing some how I hope.

Wild_1 wrote:

A real expat is someone who looks right at home, in his own skin, regardless of where he may be.  Thus, every time when he steps out, he speaks nothing but the truth; and when he encounters people of different social values or economic standings, he appreciates them for providing him with more angles to view life with.  In short, a real expat sees a glass as half full, not half empty.

Also, a real expat knows better than to judge a people based upon those he has met in bars or at the work place; and he never asks silly questions like why people lock up their valuables or why they are wary of strangers.

Last but not least, a real expat knows that finding the "right" person is tough business, even in his home country.  Therefore, when he is thousands of miles away, he engages the opposite sex with great cautions.  He never jumps into bed with a girl, on the first date, unless he pays; and he would never tie the knot with a girl who is not, at the very least, his social equal.  He knows that crossing the cultural and political divides takes at least two.

THIS is why I consider Wild_1 a good friend. We don't always agree on everything, but I agree with him on this. And to clarify, his use of the term "real" means someone who has fully acclimated him/herself to the country/culture where they live. Having said that, I, myself am probably not as "real" as I would like to be, because there are still a few issues of living here that I feel the need to struggle with on a daily basis.

snake77, such an insightful post . Thanks for sharing

Xuyen Hoang wrote:

Tran Hung Dao: pffff... you don't get the point Mr while your English is quite good. I agree if people can use that 200$ to make better ones then why don't they hire someone to make their life easier. 200$ just for time laughing here?!... Seriously?!... You must be a millionaire lol I'm sorry if I've annoyed you by repeating my words again "not many people are as rich as you are"

I'm not sure if that's a compliment when you said "your English is quite good".  The sentence somehow carries the assumption that English is a foreign language to me.

To put it in perspective in terms of the value of money.  Let's say you have 400,000 VND.  Would you pay someone 400,000 VND a month to cook and clean for you? 

(The buying power of $200 to an American in America is equivalent to the buying power of 400,000 VND to a Vietnamese in Vietnam when you consider you can buy 20 meals at $10 a piece in America and you can buy 20 meals for 20,000 VND a piece in Vietnam)

Wild_1 wrote:

The majority of expats are guys who can't hack it in their own countries.  So, they want to come here to get at the things that they can not or can never get at, among their own people and in their own languages.

Don't know many expats, but certainly true for many male travelers going to vietnam whether westerners or otherwise.

Yuli_nguyen wrote:

" Be careful if you are dating with foreigner. Not sure he is serious or maybe if have any mistake, you have babi, he can run away"

Just asking out of curiosity/naivety.. what's the situation with Vietnamese girls and contraception here?

Are Expat man expected to provide/wear condoms? Do Vietnamese women take the pill as an additional precaution? I know that you can buy them from Pharmacies here (although I've heard stories of them being fakes, but that's a whole new topic!)

bta87 wrote:

Those that feel they are a better expat than another might do well to understand just who they truly are by definition;
Expatriates=Working overseas, emigrant, nonnative,migrant,living abroad

No mention of what a REAL expat knows what to do or how to judge. Only that they exist in a country other than their mother country. So welcome to VN all you expats!!!

I just gave you some basic codes of personal conduct.  I have yet to go into details about representing your family, your country, your race, and your religion.  Yet, you are struggling already.

So what are you trying to get at?  Personal?  Are you trying to say that I am not an expat???

Not at all. I was only giving the definition of an expat in its true sense. Void of personal judgement of anyone.

Alexsara,
  You pose an interesting question. I hope we get some Vietnamese ladies input. I can tell you my situation w/ my fiancée. She said we could not copulate until waiting 6-12 months AFTER marriage. Boy I had never heard of such a thing, or so I thought. Needless to say we had quite a DISCUSSION on this .
As it turns out it was not much different than many in the west do. They delay the birth of the first child until they graduate from school, get the down for a house, or just get use to the new life. The difference it turned out was the only way she knew of to preclude PG was to abstain. Knew nothing about female anatomy, cycles, or BC. Then to she has an aversion to chemicals of any kind. Maybe we can get some local views. But you would think for some of the more progressive BC might be an option. There was an example given here where the in LOVE man played, the came baby then came a trip for papa to the airport. I can see their concern. But for those that want to remain chaste BC would not be an option. My word they will not even consider self MB. Which is an entirely different subject. Difference in cultures. I've been in countries where they would not give a pint of their blood to save the life of their own child.

Wild_1
   Your sadly mistaken if you think I struggle already. I'm not waiting with baited breath for your pits guidance!
In more than content to allow for the fact you see things the way you do. Just because you drive a Honda does not make any difference to many people. Certainly does not for me. I can usually walk down the street in VN and recognize an expat quite easily. Not always. There are indeed expats that are of Vietnamese decent.

bta87 wrote:

There are indeed expats that are of Vietnamese decent.

Descent, you mean?

AlexSarah wrote:

Yuli_nguyen wrote:

" Be careful if you are dating with foreigner. Not sure he is serious or maybe if have any mistake, you have babi, he can run away"

Just asking out of curiosity/naivety.. what's the situation with Vietnamese girls and contraception here?

Are Expat man expected to provide/wear condoms? Do Vietnamese women take the pill as an additional precaution? I know that you can buy them from Pharmacies here (although I've heard stories of them being fakes, but that's a whole new topic!)

for your question Alex
it is still a nation debate. girl with open mind will take either pill or ask her partner to play safe and the other group, which tend to follow the traditional, won't jump to bed before the wedding. and the concern is about virginity. some vn guy don't really care about whether his partner/wife ever have sex before while the other do take serious care on that matter. though I simply hate the kind of guy that only look at the virgin of the girl to judge on her personality,it is personal point of view till.