This forum needs another house in Bali topic

But wouldn't it be better economically if people bought and sold property freely?  If property values on the higher end never rise, how can they rise on the lower end?

HaileyinHongKong wrote:

But wouldn't it be better economically if people bought and sold property freely?  If property values on the higher end never rise, how can they rise on the lower end?

It would not.
Many westerners come to Indonesia with western ideas of property prices.
A few foolish people willing to pay crazy prices wouldn't change very much but, if you allowed freedom to sell to very rich (by local standards)people; the locals would soon be unable to buy property as agents would arrive in droves to sell "Prime building land" at stupid prices to clueless idiots.

“But wouldn't it be better economically if people bought and sold property freely?”

People are completely free to buy and sell Indonesian property so long as they are Indonesian. 

“If property values on the higher end never rise, how can they rise on the lower end?”

That's not an issue in most populated areas of Indonesia where in fact, even with the restrictions of land ownership, property values are rising each year at phenonominal levels.     

Hailey, Indonesians do not view land in the same way as the most westerners.  Here, land is pusaka…it is sacred, it is the repose of their ancestors, it is the source of their life and wellbeing and the idea of it being passed on by way of inheritance to anyone else but Indonesians is anathema in the minds of Indonesians.  I say, God bless them for understanding what really matters.   

Moreover, Indonesians are not interested in having their culture diluted and watered down by foreign influence or power.  That would be an inevitable outcome if Indonesia adopted a free market, anything goes with land sales ideology. 

I often suggest to my brother in law that a large sign be placed in front of the DPR/MPR building in Jakarta declaring, “INDONESIA, TIDAK DI JUAL.”  Indonesia is not for sale.  It isn't, and God willing, it never will be.

Hi HaileyinHongKong,
Ya I am agree about your idea. Lot of people are looking for property for sale and for rent in Bali.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ubudian.

Cultures are being ruined by free market philosophy. 

I live in Laos and it is inevitably going the way of Thailand.
To me Bali is a sh##hole now compared to when I first travelled there in 1973. Was back there in 1998 and was not impressed. Will never go back again.

Wayan, I'd dearly like to see the look on your face as you watched bulldozers plowing down temple after temple to make room for more McDonalds, Burger Kings, Kentucky Fried Chicken outlets, malls, restaurants, bars, resorts and villas.

There is plenty of land and villas for rent in Bali…but selling the land outright is another matter and it is of keen concern to Balinese who are aware of the potential problem and the inevitable consequences. 

Stumpy, if you ever come back to Bali you should get out of Kuta (where the vast majority of Australians hang out).  You might be surprised how much of the “real Bali” is still here…at least for now.

What Indonesians do is their business, but a little outside investment might help with all that poverty.

HaileyinHongKong wrote:

What Indonesians do is their business, but a little outside investment might help with all that poverty.

Investment is commonly good but letting people buy houses at stupid prices will exclude locals from the housing market.

All it takes is a couple of greedy agents and a bunch of clueless demi tourists with more cash than brains.
See threads on here.

Ubudian

My 1998 trip was an overnighter on the way back from working on the Batu Hijau project.

I have spent time out of Kuta on other trips and loved the place.

“What Indonesians do is their business, but a little outside investment might help with all that poverty.”

I couldn't agree more, but foreign investment in Indonesia has little to do with selling land.

Foreign investment is currently very healthy in Indonesia, in fact, foreign investment in Indonesia hit a record in the second quarter of this year:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … 17964.html

As Fred says, allowing foreign purchase of land here will only inflate an already accelerated real estate market to the exclusion of the local populous.

Ubudian wrote:

As Fred says, allowing foreign purchase of land here will only inflate an already accelerated real estate market to the exclusion of the local populous.

I'm unsure how stupid house prices are in Bali at the moment but they're a sick joke in Jakarta.
Prices have rocketed over the last couple of years but many still seem to be buying.
This is nothing short of very foolish as there's very lkely to be a major crash in the next year or so.
Inflation is getting a bit silly and retail sales figures are dropping off a little.
The BBM rise won't help at all.
An example.
The last place I rented cost Rp800 million new.
The guy next door had bought on credit.
His car was on credit.
All the contents of the house were new and on credit.
All the electricity meters there were prepay and beep when the credit is running out.
Mine never beeped but a good few on that road never shut up.
The occupants, including the guy next door, had so much credit, they couldn't afford to feed the electricity meter more than a little at a time.
One slightly bad month or his job going and he's in serious trouble, probably without a house and the car will be long gone.

That guy is one of thousands, maybe millions who have credited themselves into a large hole and no one can fill it in for them.
Basically, they're buggered.

Now for the real problem.
If one man loses his job and can't afford to pay the bank back, it's a bugger for him but no big deal for anyone else.
If lots can't the bank will take back the house and so on but won't get enough money to recover all the debt.
The largest problem - the banks are borrowing to lend.
If the banks don't get paid, they won't be able to pay back their loans and the poop really hits the kipas angin at supersonic speed.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013 … oodys.html

The Indonesian banks and government knows it but people are still trying their best to be daft and go bust.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/business … g-lenders/http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/business … g-lenders/

"Non performing loads" means, the lender couldn't pay it back.

Rising inflation, lower retail sales and people cutting back in general means a storm is very probably on the way.
Save; don't spend.

Was their ever a point?  Is so what was it?  If not then how can it be missed?

OMG, it sounds like Indonesia economy is following the rest of the world.  I didn't think that was possible.

“I'm unsure how stupid house prices are in Bali at the moment but they're a sick joke in Jakarta.”

I'm totally in the dark about the Jakarta market Fred, but very well aware of the Bali market which is on steroids at present.  Land that we could have easily bought for 30 million an are ten years ago is at least 150 million these days, and that's “harga organg Bali.”  A five fold increase in real estate prices over a ten year period is simply not healthy, and there is no end in sight at present. 

Construction costs are also way, way up, but thankfully a good part of that is increased wages which I view as a good thing.

seacgroup...nice to have another "Yank" on board! 

Cheers!

mas fred wrote:

As Fred says, allowing foreign purchase of land here will only inflate an already accelerated real estate market to the exclusion of the local populous.

Ubudian wrote:

]
I'm unsure how stupid house prices are in Bali at the moment but they're a sick joke in Jakarta.

Prices have rocketed over the last couple of years but many still seem to be buying. ... etc

Yes house prices in Bali are very inflated, I am of Indonesian origin and currently live in France. We are selling our house (built of stones, 60 cm walls on 1800sqm land - see: green-acres.com/en/properties/36051.htm in 'france profonde' literally rural France and can only expect to get not more than Rp1,3 milyard which could only be the value of 10 years rent in Sanur. Yet cost of living is fairly low in France, Whole large fresh chickens for Rp80,000; German beer Rp5000 per 330ml bottle; pork is very cheap and steak starts from Rp 50,000 per kg.

I will be looking for a house in Ubud to rent toward the end of the year and don't cherish the tough task.

cheers!

Where are housing prices not going up?

"Where are housing prices not going up?"

The US for one, although the market there is starting to pick up. 

In reality, if I had bought a house most anywhere  in the US in early 2006 for say 300,000 as of last year I would have been lucky to get 200,000 for it.  On the other hand, had I bought a house in Bali in 2006 for 200,000 it would be easy right now to get 400,000.  That's a big difference.

The last American house I lived in now costs almost twice as much as it did.

"The last American house I lived in now costs almost twice as much as it did."

If originally purchased by your pioneering ancestors back in the 1880's that should be expected.