Homelessness in PR

I can't say that I've seen homeless people in PR, either.  This will be an interesting discussion~

If PR ever becomes a state, like Hawaii is, I expect that the similarities will grow.
Both have a limited land area, limited agriculture lands, both are dependent turism.

However maybe a better comparison if we set aside statehood, would be to compare Puerto Rico to Guam, both are current territories of the US. We have a lot of military in Guam that can possibly shed some light on Guam.

We should compare Poverty level, average income. overall cost of living, unemployment, homelessness for PR, Guam and Hawaii.

What do you think?
Rey

I have traveled to both PR and Hawaii.   On Oahu we drove past a very large encampment of homeless people living in cars and tents on the west end of the island on public land / beach windward side (guess the authorities permitted this as it was obviously a long term encampment) Since then, it may have changed.

A lawyer I spoke within the plane who lives there (20+years) told me it was populated by the working class who could not afford the high cost of housing on the island.  He said many of the homeless earned 60 - 80K per year, but can not afford the ridiculous housing market in Oahu (this was 2004) - at that time a very small dump of a house in a poor neighborhood in Honolulu cost $450K and up (I looked at the market). 

We did not notice a homeless population in PR (spent very little time in SJ so don't know about that area) when we visited last year and drove around the island.

It seemed to me that the PR island is large enough to provide a larger market of livable land that can be developed (land and housing costs are not nearly as high as Hawaii due to supply) and has a more diversified economy.   

Still, the PR economy is a mess, high unemployment is the main problem.  A mass exodus of people - CNN said 5% - have left the island looking for work in the mainland and the trend continues.

The public debt crisis in PR requires a federal solution - it's a crime that the US provides billions of foreign aide to countries all over the world, yet here in America we allow PJ to sink into such high unemployment, poverty and public bankruptcy!  A national disgrace. 

PR should be allowed to file for bankruptcy (like other public entities on the mainland - i.e. Detroit and others) - then the courts can set a distribution schedule for the credit holders and settle it. Yes, the bond holders will take a haircut - but the government can't pay the bill and it is unrealistic to think that they can raise the necessary revenue through more taxes or higher utility rates. 

PR needs federal help!

Some interesting numbers
Median Household Income
a) Hawaii - $71,223
b) Guam - $39,052
c) PR - $19,518

Poverty Rate
a) Hawaii - 8.6%
b) Guam - 19.9%
c) PR - 45%

Population (2015)
Hawaii - 1,429,588
Guam - 171,144
PR - 3,706,690

Land mass Square miles
a) Hawaii - 10,931 (all islands)
b) Guam - 209
c) PR - 3,515

Calculated population density by square mile
a) Hawaii -    130.783
b) Guam  -    818.871
c) PR       - 1,054.535


So it looks like most people in Hawaii make a heck of a lot more money than people in PR (3.65 times more) but can not apparently afford housing. This I don't understand as I seen numbers that say that you can find condos for 122k and houses seem to range around 425k, apparently around 50% of available housing is rented.

As to housing in PR, you can find places around 70k on up to multiple million dollars, most houses that seem to attract mainlanders seem to range between 250k and 350k. My place is 165k but I am from the island and it is just 2 of us. A lot of rent prices  in non metro area seem to run in the 400-600 range.

Hawaii seems to be a heck of a lot less densely populated than Guam or Puerto Rico.

PR has the highest population density of the 3, has the highest percent of poverty by a mile, but seem to have less homeless, WEIRD!

I hope that if PR becomes a state that we don't end up with the same housing issue in PR as in Hawaii. It could happen!

Comments? Insights?
Thanks
Rey

Hawaii, (especially the big island), does seem less densely populated when you drive around the islands.  I think that may be due to the large % of land that is not available for housing development for various reasons - public owned, ag use, lava flows that are not useable, or too vertical except for goats.

All that remains for housing is narrow strip between the mountain and sea, thus usable land is in short supply v demand.  Thats how it also was in parts of south east Alaska which inflate housing costs.

Seems to me on the supply side, in PR, that much of the interior land is or could be used for housing if demand pushed up the value to exceed the current agricultural use; on the demand side, with the mass exodus of working people, the market has fewer buyers.  So we are seeing a depressed housing market now.

Perhaps many unemployed have migrated north looking for work and thus we see fewer homeless on the island??

All very good points Sitka.
Seems that the main cause in Hawaii for homelessness is the high cost of housing, people are working and making good money but cant afford what little housing exist. While in PR up until the recesion started was due to subtance abuse (80%), that has changed some due to unemployment during the recession.

I am not sure that homeless people are inmigrating, it is hard to find a job in PR and elsewhere if you are homeless and can not look presentable, vicious cycle specially if due to subtance abuse.

I think, but I could be wrong, that extended families are putting a roof over their heads and the shadow economy is keeping them going.

yes, unemployed, homeless people may not be able afford to emigrate - family and friends may shelter/prevent the homeless to a great extent.  Family loyalty/support is strong in the culture.

The island needs new and growing opportunity for young people to have careers and homes.   The past economic development seems to have failed.  I noticed several pharmaceutical industrial
plants on the island last year.   I believe that at some point years ago, tax incentives were established to encourage the drug industry to open production plants there.  I don't know the history or politics about that past - but it seems to have lost impact on the economy.

The federal government needs to assist here - open legal remedies to insolvency - we maybe need $ aid - we surely need legal options to allow the market to properly respond and adjust (and I'm a republican).

Perhaps my opinions will evolve after we move to the island.

Sitka wrote:

yes, unemployed, homeless people may not be able afford to emigrate - family and friends may shelter/prevent the homeless to a great extent.  Family loyalty/support is strong in the culture.

The island needs new and growing opportunity for young people to have careers and homes.   The past economic development seems to have failed.  I noticed several pharmaceutical industrial
plants on the island last year.   I believe that at some point years ago, tax incentives were established to encourage the drug industry to open production plants there.  I don't know the history or politics about that past - but it seems to have lost impact on the economy.

The federal government needs to assist here - open legal remedies to insolvency - we maybe need $ aid - we surely need legal options to allow the market to properly respond and adjust (and I'm a republican).

Perhaps my opinions will evolve after we move to the island.

Your opinion is righ on. The island need more employment oportunities, specially in the sciences and IT which have little or not export cost.
All the manufactoring tax break expired and the caused the collapse of the little economy that existed about 10 years ago. Not only that but the cost of transporting/shipping the items/products produced in the island are not manufactoring friendly.

We need to produce software, services, research, medical treatment, and stablish a organ transplant center so little to nothing has to incur transportation cost.
Drugs were good because the transport cost was minimal compared to the per pill price of the product. What little of that still exist will not last long.

So sciences, service and math will need to do the rescue.

Maybe - however, that will require a well educated and technically trained work force.   I know that some educational opportunities exist as we saw several colleges, campus schools around the island.  Assuming the educational systems are in place to train workers, what employment can grads get?  They need jobs that compensate fairly and keep young people at home, working, raising families and paying taxes, (even if not federal)  (did I say I was a republican  LOL )?

What incentives can draw those industries to PR?    I'm not aware of the high tech IT/Software start ups going to the island?  I did hear a rumor about synthetic fuel but that could be vapor.

I don't see PR developing as a medical treatment center, regional medical tourism requires a solid price advantage to offset travel and costs.

Some of my observations over the years:

- there is a huge grey/black economy on the island. Many people who appear in the jobless statistics are doing odd jobs for which they get paid in cash. To get by they have "Reforma" (medicaid) and "La Tarjeta" (food stamps).

- In Puertorican families it is very normal that young adults stay living with their parents until they can afford a place of their own. It's also completely normal to come back to Mami and Papi to live after a relation goes bad or after a divorce or loss of a job. I think this is an important reason that you don't see many homeless people. We (I feel PuertoRican after all these years and with a great bunch of in-laws that fully accepted me)  take care of our family. The  same goes for taking care of the elderly, they are not "put away" in a home, family takes care of them in their own home.

- I have seen homeless people in OSJ when I worked there a lot. Most of them drug addicts. They found a dry place to sleep at night and were begging (and/or stealing) at  day time to finance their addiction.

There is a number of software development companies in PR, they are fairly small true.
There are also service/IT related companies in PR, take for example that Gary has a networking company serving PR and some of the US mainland.
There are pockets here and there.

As to medical, not sure if it was the governor, but there was a proposal to offer specialised medical treatments and transplant services at a good discount to the mainland.

The University of Puerto Rico is a very good university, they can produce the talent. However this will not help those with little to no education have much of a job.

Puerto Rico also need to look good and hard at the Tourism in the island, with Cuba being liberated from the embargo and the Dominican Republic getting more Tourism, PR will be in trouble as those countries can offer a great place for a lot less than PR, and Cuba is a hop and skip from Miami. The two main advantages PR has over them is that PR is part of the US and all services, including medical, restaurant standards, water standards, most meet US requirements. The second one is US dollars, no need to do exchange, easy to compare if what you are buying is a bargain or a ripoff.

Gary wrote:

Some of my observations over the years:

- there is a huge grey/black economy on the island. Many people who appear in the jobless statistics are doing odd jobs for which they get paid in cash. To get by they have "Reforma" (medicaid) and "La Tarjeta" (food stamps).

- In Puertorican families it is very normal that young adults stay living with their parents until they can afford a place of their own. It's also completely normal to come back to Mami and Papi to live after a relation goes bad or after a divorce or loss of a job. I think this is an important reason that you don't see many homeless people. We (I feel PuertoRican after all these years and with a great bunch of in-laws that fully accepted me)  take care of our family. The  same goes for taking care of the elderly, they are not "put away" in a home, family takes care of them in their own home.

- I have seen homeless people in OSJ when I worked there a lot. Most of them drug addicts. They found a dry place to sleep at night and were begging (and/or stealing) at  day time to finance their addiction.

To add to Gary's comment, this (staying at home for longer or moving back at an older age) is a general attribute of Latin cultures, and, in fact, of Spanish culture as well!

There are a fair number of apparently homeless people in parts of San Juan: VSJ, Condado, Santurce, Rio Piedras. As Gary implied, they usually seem to be drug addicts or mentally ill (or perhaps both).

Rey,

Heroin addiction is a huge problem in PR, and so is homelessness (many heroin addicts end up homeless). I moved away four years ago, but I go back every year and I still see it. Off the top of my head, I can name several places that always have homeless:
-Intersection between expreso de trujillo alto and 65 de infanteria in rio piedras - look for beds under the bridge
-Tren urbano station at Centro Medico
-Bunch of traffic lights on 65 de infanteria and expreso de trujillo
-Many streets of Old San Juan, Condado, Santurce
-Any park

It is rare in PR for somebody to sleep on the street because they can not afford a place to stay, as is seen in the states, but the population of homeless addicts is very large. Here are a couple of links for further reading:
Dialogo UPR: Quienes son nuestros deambulantes?

Censo encontro 112 deambulantes con grado universitario

So according to this there are about 1,654 homeless in PR in a population of about 3.7 Million, that is not bad in my opinion. Hawaii has around 7,000 with a population of 1.4 million.

Of the above 1654, it seems that 54% are drug users some use more than 1 drug.
There are also a good number of them with some form of metal illness or depression. So it is somewhat likely that the families are either afraid of them or gave up on them for not going to rehabilitation programs.

Most families will take care of their own as Gary previously said, so likely frustration of the family and possibly fear of what they can do has resulted in them being in the streets instead of being with extended families.

When we visited Oahu in 2013, several parks and beaches in Waikiki were filled with our homeless sisters and brothers. They were visitable everywhere. Some were former military personnel but most appeared to be  working class families. My former coworker's mom lived there for years as a member of the working poor. I was told she was offered a one way ticket home but she was not allowed to return if she used it. I don't know the particulars but she is now back in Alabama. She experienced some mental concerns while living on the island for years. We spent two weeks in Hawaii this past summer and the homeless population was less visitable in masses. They were seen sporadically throughout Oahu and on the North Shore. It seems as if they were removed or strongly encouraged not been seen in places patronized by tourists.

There are not enough shelters to accommodate the working poor in Hawaii. It is heart breaking on so many levels.

yes, and I have had friends - professional level, well paid - leave Hawaii due to the high cost of living / housing there. 

For people in the non skilled, labor job market, they can find service jobs all over Hawaii, lots of work available, but housing is so outrageous they sometimes must live out of a car.  When I visited Oahu, the homeless (not just kids, but families) had a large camp on the western/north side of the island.

That may have changed since then, but it is a shame when local people can't afford to live at home.

Sitka wrote:

yes, and I have had friends - professional level, well paid - leave Hawaii due to the high cost of living / housing there. 

For people in the non skilled, labor job market, they can find service jobs all over Hawaii, lots of work available, but housing is so outrageous they sometimes must live out of a car.  When I visited Oahu, the homeless (not just kids, but families) had a large camp on the western/north side of the island.

That may have changed since then, but it is a shame when local people can't afford to live at home.

Lets hope that does not happen in PR!!!!!!!!!!!
The properties in PR could become just as un-uptainable 10 20 years in the future.

I agree.  However,due to the relative supply v demand for land, seems more likely that we will have much of the same local economy in PR for the foreseeable future.   

If the local economy improves enough to keep locals home with decent jobs, they will push up housing values some, but I don't see a major real estate boom in PR soon.

I would consider starting some type of business in PR next year, if I could think of something that might have a good chance to succeed?

Drug addiction anywhere in the world, not only destroys the life of the addict but also the family. It takes a strong family in PR and elsewhere to convince them to get help.

My brother was a user for a while and was in Metadona program a couple of time before he kicked it. The family helped and supported him and he never was homeless.

But it is not only drugs, but alcohol also. There are probably more alcoholic homeless than drug users.

Obviously not everyone is is a labourer or an entrepreneur, so the shadow economy can not help everyone stay afloat when there are no jobs and the bills are due and the bank wants to foreclose on the house.

It is a sad story, but most families take care of their own and everything keeps moving along. Hell we even feed the salesmen when they come to sell us water filters and other items.

One thing does worry me, and that is the position of women in PR. Women tend to stop school and marry (not all). If the husband dies, ends up in jail, leaves her, or beats her, her and the kids are more likely to become homeless if the extended family does not take them in. She may not have any skills making it very difficult to support herself and the kids.

Here is another example, My oldest son Ex-wife is a nurse, but she refuses to move to the states to make good money. She stays in PR and makes crap (20K) when she could be making 60+ K starting salary in the states. Here is the bad part of the family, she does not want to leave her parents.

I'm enjoying this enlightening discussion, thank you everyone for your contributions!

yes, a nurse (RN) on the mainland can start at 60k and up, lots of opportunity for work and advancement. I am curious about the relative market for RN's in PR.  Why are pay scales depressed here for nurses?

All pay scales are depressed in rhe island. A consultand in the mainland that makes 80 an hour gets 20-30 in PR.
A new doctor starts around 40-50k in PR, same doctor ggets 100k in the states.

That is why a burger flipper should not get a minimum salary of 15 an hour. It completly breaks the established scales, so every one else also needs to double their salaries. Next thing a berger will cost 22 with fries.
As it is 7 bucks an hour is already too much for the economy, that means less people will have jobs and the ones that have it need to work for 2

Does that also apply to the construction and building trades?

To my knowledge those guys get around the munimum up to about 12 in some cases. Contractors get mist of the money.

I got curious about this as well and did a search. I found this report stating that there are 4,132 documented homeless here in PR. From my understanding the ppl included are those who went through an application process. That leaves many more that are not in the system. In my town there are many homeless, it's evident every day. OSJ and Santurce especially have a large population of homeless. I imagine there are a lot of abandoned buildings that could be used to house a lot of ppl. I rarely see buildings boarded up securely and you have to admit, there are some nice empty houses out there. I doubt they have they problem in Hawaii. Just a thought. I bet hospitals and smaller organizations would have a better idea of an actual number.

Sitka wrote:

yes, a nurse (RN) on the mainland can start at 60k and up, lots of opportunity for work and advancement. I am curious about the relative market for RN's in PR.  Why are pay scales depressed here for nurses?

I can give you s few examples:

I graduated as a RT(respiratory therapist) in 1996 in PR. In order to obtain a license in PR, you have to work for the goberment for one year. The salary was $650 a month, an RN starting salary was $850/month. Today's day the health care salaries are not much better. An RN salary is around $2k/month for the first year since she have to still give the government a year. If there are no positions, she will get a provisional license and the goberment can "request " her services in the future.
I left the island in 1997-98, went from making less than $5/hr to over $20/hr doing the same type of work. That's the reason most health care workers leave.

The main reason salaries are so low is cost of health care, a hospital visit in PR is a fraction of the cost in the US. They can't pay the US salaries if they are not making the money.

Another examples;

My cousin have a masters in computer science, he works for the university system. He makes less than $25k/year.

When I male the career move into IT my salary almost doble from my RT salary in the US.

My brother in law works in construction in PR, they star at minimum wage if it is a legal company. He is being doing it for years, he makes less than $12/hr. And spend about 1/3 of the year unemployed waiting for new projects to start.

My friend here works in construction in Tx, his salary is in the $60k/ yr. works year around here.

Starting salary of a starting police officer is under $30k/yr. most municipal workers make minimum wage and raises are slow and shot coming.

My daughter started working fot the FWPD, she makes doble that. My younger is a cook and she even make more than a police in PR.

Ray, I just moved here from Arizona, we live in Vega Baja and I can tell you this, there is a homeless person standing with a cup on at least every stoplight trying to get money from you  sometimes there's actually more than one person for each direction of traffic I feel that if this place becomes a state it'll be better all-around for Puerto Rico this is my home now and I only want to see it prosper

With the rising unemployment and economic problems, it is not suprising. 

I hope this will not result in wholesale reductions in public safety and police staff cuts.

I work for Harvard University In Cambridge, MA. Just outside my building there are at least 7 people asking for money, and 3 around the corner. They no longer ask for spare change, now they ask for "a dollar". I go out of the office at least 7 times a day and they ask me every time. Bad short memory I guess. There are organizations here to help and places for them to sleep, but most will rather ask for money. If you follow some of them you find that some of them have cars, some better than mine. Some of these people make several hundreds bucks a day. They are everywhere including commuter train stations, and inside the subway stations. It is bad. Some of these people beg off about 6,000 a month. Some bring little kids, some infants, others bring a cute dog all to attract attention and get better money.
I hope PR never gets this bad.

Since getting back to Puerto Rico a few weeks ago. I noticed less people in ponce including homeless. Less smal business in the historic center but more restaurants. Everything seems the same otherwise.

I was driving from Walmart, in Guayama... as I waited at the light, a man came over to ask for change; I reached into my change (cup) holder, and grabbed what I could, with one swoop. I handed it to the man... he picked through, leaving the pennies! That was 2012, I have not given out change since then...

Well it seems like not even the bums want pennies. I heard the goverment is considering eliminating the penny.

The other day I gave money to a lady on a traffic light. She used one hand to collect the money and the other to hold her cigarette and thank me.

Veckyschmerler wrote:

The other day I gave money to a lady on a traffic light. She used one hand to collect the money and the other to hold her cigarette and thank me.

Well at least she did not take a drink from her bottle of rum.
.

ReyP wrote:

I work for Harvard University In Cambridge, MA. Just outside my building there are at least 7 people asking for money, and 3 around the corner. They no longer ask for spare change, now they ask for "a dollar". I go out of the office at least 7 times a day and they ask me every time. Bad short memory I guess. There are organizations here to help and places for them to sleep, but most will rather ask for money. If you follow some of them you find that some of them have cars, some better than mine. Some of these people make several hundreds bucks a day. They are everywhere including commuter train stations, and inside the subway stations. It is bad. Some of these people beg off about 6,000 a month. Some bring little kids, some infants, others bring a cute dog all to attract attention and get better money.
I hope PR never gets this bad.

Well...it seems that some things are almost universal.    We have been to Austin, Texas several times (our son lives there) and noticed the pan handlers have staked out certain high traffic spots to ply their trade right across from the UT campus.  Apparently, like real estate corners for fast food restaurants, it is location, location, location that drives success.  According to an article in the local Austin newspaper that profiled a few of these types  - some pull in very respectable incomes - like over 60K a year from begging!!  The 'good' begging intersections are coveted by the beggars and competition among them has lead to fights over the use of the corner.

Some of the beggars try to up their game by using a spray bottle & rag to clean your windshield while stopped at the light, then ask for a buck.  In PR, at least some of the pan handlers sell cold water to the cars at the stop lights (I thought that was a smart approach as most drivers are hot and need a drink ). 

Anyway, it is a sad reflection of our social condition that some must resort to this as a way of life.

Flexible hours ..... Work panhandling until you have enough, go around the corner and get on you BMW and head home. I seen it. Great life, no layoffs and no need to punch a clock.

No Beemers here, these people are drug addicts, sometimes they can hardly stand as they beg for more money to buy drugs, it's a discrace that the government here lets this happen, don't they have rehab centers here? Why do the police just let them walk up and down the road in and in between traffic? It's a safety hazard, it's a discrace.