"Recreational" drugs

And that's not to mention the fact that Indonesia has the RIGHT idea about drug trafficking.... it's called the FIRING SQUAD.

They don't make exceptions either, as two Brazilians recently found out. Of course here in Brazil the idiot president we have wanted them spared, when that didn't pan out for her, she considered having a street named after them, declaring them national heroes, or proclaiming a national holiday in their honor.

Viva Indonesia.

I find it hard to think of any reasons why a dead drug dealer should have anything but a simple grave named after them.
Some twit in an Australian university named a course after their dead criminals. That proves intelligence doesn't mean a person isn't insane, or just very foolish.

To the point of the thread - Drugs are still a smallish problem in Indonesia, and the vast majority of the population want it to be as small as zero. The government rightly agrees, so treats drug dealers very harshly.

Having two kids I want to grow up in a drug free environment, I find it impossible to object to Indonesian government policy on this issue.

A note to all expats and tourist, leave drugs alone here, or you just might find your hotel is a very small concrete room, and the food not up to 5 star standard. Some get out of prison early, but that's for a short walk to the firing squad.

Great to have strict laws against drug traffickers. But when your kids grow up and if they got arrested at a party where some others were using drugs or inadvertently got arrested for stupidly trying out drugs or any one of a number of possibilities involving drugs, would you have the same viewpoint that they should be executed or spend much of their life in prison, or would you fight for their freedom with everything you got?

Personally I wouldn't want my kids to be executed or spend a long time in prison. I would think them foolish for whatever they got up to, but would prefer the authorities be lenient. I would spend every penny that I have to protect my kids from such a punishment.

Well Hansson,

Speaking as the father of 5 (4 now adult) sons and daughters and as a fellow Canadian, I certainly would not change my position. The bottom line is our parenting, the values that we instill in our children and the examples we, ourselves, set for them. While Canada hasn't had capital punishment since 1976 and the last execution was in 1962, other countries still have laws which permit the death penalty. Since they are, after all, sovereign nations and those laws, for the most part, have been democratically decided we can say what we wish not much will change that.

Anyone who is so foolish to try trafficking drugs in a nation that has capital punishment, does so knowingly and must therefore accept the consequences of their choice. While I'd be deeply saddened if it were one of my children, I'd be more concerned about exactly what I had failed to do that would have kept them off that path.

It's easy to sit back and "Monday morning quarterback", trying to impose our Canadian standards on other countries, what isn't quite as easy is to see the destruction and death in countries not quite as developed as Canada. I was completely opposed to the death penalty until I moved to Brazil nearly 14 years ago. A country where more people are murdered in a year than all the combat deaths in the whole Vietnam War. Brazil also doesn't have the death penalty and 90 percent of the population is screaming for it to be enacted. I've come to change my opinion and am no longer quite so opposed anymore, because here there is a completely different reality. Have you every been to any developing nation, or are you just giving personal opinions from a comfortably safe distance?

Cheers,
James

Hi James,

Well each to his or her own opinion. As I say, traffickers who are clearly guilty should be executed or maybe spend a very long time in prison.

However, mistakes do happen and occasionally people get executed when they are innocent. And people who are not as involved as others also get executed when maybe they shouldn't. And some who are implicated but actually just being used by others also get executed due to their stupidity. In Indonesia we recently saw sodomy allegations at an International School and two teachers were jailed for quite a long time, and then due to lack of proof they were released. Mistakes happen, but once someone is executed or has spent a long time in prison and is then found out to be innocent, an apology is usually not enough, especially if they are already dead.

But getting back to one's own kids, if you are willing to let your own kids get executed and agree with the decision then it's absolutely your right to do that, and I am sure that some others will agree with you. However, being in a a world where we have freedom of thought and freedom of decision and opinions, I would rather that my own children are not jailed or executed. This is just my own personal opinion and you can argue until the cows come home, but my opinion is my opinion. Nobody is right or wrong here. It's like abortion in the US, is it right or wrong?

So hope you can remain calm about this.

James, I have six kids and have lived in 10 different countries and that goes back a very long way. There is no need to attack me or to be so attacking in attitude. It won't make your opinion more relevant than my own.

James wrote:

Well Hansson,

...Have you every been to any developing nation, or are you just giving personal opinions from a comfortably safe distance?

I respects everyone's opinion, but I don't think there is any need to make such personal comments. James you should know better that not everyone wishes to advertise the fact that they have lived around the world so your comment is a little aggressive.

Also, half the world are against capital punishment and half are for it. When one's own children are involved that percentage probably changes a lot. But more importantly it is nice to be respectful to each other here and not to assume someone hasn't traveled and knows nothing because they have not mention it in their biography.

For the record, Indonesia does not execute drug users.  Moreover, the vast majority of drug dealers that are caught in Indonesia are also not executed.  Execution is generally reserved for dealers in large quantities of the most dangerous drugs, (or, as in the most recent case of the “Bali 9”) the two leaders of that cartel of nine who were arrested in Bali with a very large quantity of heroin.  And btw, the ironic twist to the Bali 9 is the fact that it was the Australian Federal Police who tipped off the police in Bali (knowing full well that we have the death penalty in force here for drug smuggling) about the impending arrival of the “Bali 9” making their arrest a certainty.

Indonesia is a developing nation.  The only other country on this planet with more miles of coast line is Canada which makes policing of drug smuggling in Indonesia particularly challenging…and for certain…very expensive.  While there are studies which seem to indicate that capital punishment is not a deterrent to committing murder, there are no existing studies which indicate that capital punishment is not a deterrent to drug smuggling.  The reasoning for the disparate results are simple…murder is often committed with passion, or the heat of the moment whereas smuggling is planned, well thought out and with ample time for the perp to change his, or her mind.

Polls have been taken in Indonesia regarding the role of capital punishment for drug smugglers and the overwhelming majority of its citizens support it.  It is the will of the people of Indonesia, and the law will not change until, and unless, the people of Indonesia change their minds and vote accordingly.   

As a father of three Balinese/American sons I fully support the death penalty for drug smugglers in Indonesia.  More importantly, again as the father of three Balinese/American sons, I have made it very clear to each of them the dangers of drug use, and the stringent penalties that await them if they make the wrong sort of decision.  That message from me is only supported and repeated by my wife, her family, our entire village, our schools, our priests, our scout leader our coaches…etc., etc., etc.  Once again, and as a father, I feel very privileged to be able to raise my boys in an environment where there is little chance of them ever being exposed to the drug scourge which is crippling so many other countries. 

Excellent post Fred and with a very important reminder that needs to be re-stated now and then...just as you did.   

"The bottom line is our parenting, the values that we instill in our children and the examples we, ourselves, set for them."

Spot on James, and for what it's worth, I thought your posts were also excellent and not aggressive in the least.      I'd give you a third thumbs up, but alas, I only have but two hands.   

Cheers.

Polls have been taken in Indonesia regarding the role of capital punishment for drug smugglers and the overwhelming majority of its citizens support it.

.. and at least two expats in Indonesia.

I come from a place destroyed by drug dealing scumbags, and I don't want that to happen here.
Indonesia can execute the lot as far as I'm concerned.

Most people have no clue what the dealers cause until they've seen a place infested by that evil bunch, then moved to a place where such dogs are executed.
There is something very wrong in a society when my dad, a man who was reluctant to take an Asprin, knew where to buy hard drugs.
When dealing is that open (and it is in much of England), the society has failed, and the government has failed its citizens.
Keep the executions going, Joko, regardless of what wet fish say about human rights - the real human rights are for people to live free of the nasty scum who kill for cash by dealing drugs.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ubudian. It's all about choices, and we're all responsible for the choices we make in life. That's, in my opinion, what's really wrong with the world today... too many people don't want to accept responsibility for themselves, or for their children and want different treatment or special consideration.

I personally feel that it it the height of arrogance, to sit back in a developed nation, with a totally different reality, casting stones at the democratic process and laws of another sovereign nation. I wonder if these same people who are trying to force their standards on other nations, would appreciate having someone try and force theirs on them? Clearly not, but it's somehow ok when they do it.

Canada doesn't have capital punishment because that's they way Canadian voters, and the parliament want it. The USA has capital punishment in many states because that's the way the electorate wants it. Indonesia has the death penalty for drug traffickers, because that's the way the vast majority of Indonesians want it. That's DEMOCRACY.

Just look around you people... this world is so screwed up and embroiled in so many wars and armed conflicts for this exact reason, too many people with the unmitigated arrogance thinking they've got the right to interfere in the internal politics and laws of democratic and sovereign nations!!! Where does this "do as I say, or else" attitude come from anyway, if not from shear arrogance.

Want to complain about the laws in some country where the people don't have any say in the matter, then be my guest... I'll be right there alongside you in my outcry. But, who are we to say what other nations, where the people really do have a voice, do or don't do?

Cheers,
James

Ubudian wrote:

"The bottom line is our parenting, the values that we instill in our children and the examples we, ourselves, set for them."

Spot on James, and for what it's worth, I thought your posts were also excellent and not aggressive in the least.      I'd give you a third thumbs up, but alas, I only have but two hands.   

Cheers.

I agree with most of what you say Ubudian, parenting is definitely important and there is never any question about that. Same more or less for traffickers that they should get the death penalty or at least a very long prison sentence. But even good parenting doesn't always instill the right way of thinking into ones children, especially when they get older and start to get influenced by their friends and peer pressure. What about when they go off to college on the other side of the world? We can only try our best but we cannot guarantee that our kids will always do the right thing. It seems that the only thing that James and I disagree on is whether we feel that our children should be executed if caught trafficking drugs. I just couldn't bring myself to tell one of my children that they deserve to be executed. I would do everything possible to avoid them getting the death penalty.

I don't think there is a need to argue the point since it is just my own viewpoint. It's the same as with banning guns, disagreeing with abortion etc. If one of my children were to ever be convicted of drug trafficking, I would never give up on them.

James, I appreciate your viewpoint, but I am not telling you that I am right and that you are wrong. Just that I wouldn't want my own child to get the death penalty. I would like to continue seeing them as their father even if they were in prison. That's it. No point arguing any more on this.

Just a side point but equally in my view totally relevant. The article in the Jalarta Post mentions tourists which I hope people here appreciate means a visitor either foriegn or domestic and as its the thousand islands 85 to 90% are domestic who pay for the boat ride and 6 to 8 hours bobbing about in boats and maybe sleeping in losmen 12 to a room as its a cheap weekend away from Jakarta.
The domestic tourists who look for drugs in those islands know where they are. The western ones might know but probably dont.
If a westerner wants to get drugs in the city there are plenty of places to go if he or she knows where to go and its really far too simple.
I would have to sadly disagree with Mas Fred regarding drugs being a small problem in the country. I would actually say its a big problem affecting a small but growing amount of individuals but the problem is increasing amongst certain groups hence the amount being pushed into Indonesia.
I like Mas Fred have first hand experience with this in various forms and have nothing but hard cheese to give to anyone caught dealing, carrying, buying this stuff.
Shoot them, lock them up do what ever it takes to stop it spreading but dont forget to educate those most at risk with more than a roadside banner saying say no to drugs.

I would have to sadly disagree with Mas Fred regarding drugs being a small problem in the country. I would actually say its a big problem affecting a small but growing amount of individuals but the problem is increasing amongst certain groups hence the amount being pushed into Indonesia.

I really hope you're wrong on this.
I saw my home town go to the dogs because of dealers, and the massive damage they did in other local towns.
I helped the cops in my old place nail a nest of drug dealers, and I'd be more than happy to do the same again.
I realise there are areas in Jakarta with problems, some aimed at locals, others at the expat market, but I hope it's limited to a small number of dealers, feeding a smallish number of weak minded fools.
However, I heard of a case in a local school of a kid nabbed smoking weed, and I saw the drug bust in my film I posted earlier, so I know there is a wide variety of options for the stupid to engage in.

The advice remains - avoid illegal drugs in Indonesia - or risk a very long and unpleasant holiday in a filthy prison.

Nothing wrong with all comments posted earlier here.

Drugs are a serious problem and not easy to get under control. The capital punishment is known and displayed all over Indonesia, even on flights entering Indonesia it is announced.

If people still wanna take the risk....be ready for the consequences if get caught or go and deal elsewhere.

Does not matter if we talk about yourself, kids or family.....thats the law and one has to be aware of it, respect it.

Does not matter if we talk about yourself, kids or family.....thats the law and one has to be aware of it, respect it.

You have that right.
People can bleat on about human rights and so on, but the bottom line is simple.

If you mess with drugs here, you're likely to end in in serious trouble, or dead.

That I agree with Indonesia's policy, save I would make it much harsher, is of no matter - the fact of Indonesia's laws and attitudes to drug pushers remain.


.

I agree with both Happyhour and Fred and with the Indonesian law to execute drug traffickers, a law that is overwhelmingly supported by the people of Indonesia. But this is easy to say unless your own child is arrested for trafficking or for other drug related offenses. I am not the kind of parent who will say to my child, "I warned you about this, now bear the consequences". I am more the parent who will be really angry with my child but do my best to get them out of a death sentence.

I think most parents who have a child jailed or sentenced to death with fly to Indonesia and do their best to help their child. We see this all the time in the news. Happily my children are all morally well educated and would never mess around with drugs as far as I know. But the only way to know if any of us would truly tell our own child that they deserve to be executed is if it really happens to one of us. That is the moment when we really see how much you care about your own children. Furthermore, do you honestly think your wives will go along with you that their own child should be executed? Do you think a mother will support the death penalty for their own child, possibly even an only child, who may have foolishly got involved in trafficking drugs and is now regretting it?

I believe it is really difficult to know how one will truly react until it actually happens. Will you be hard and cold in your decision and watch your wife walk away from you, or will you put your own family first?

Here's another question. If you suspect that your daughter has been messing around with drugs and may be a pusher or trafficker, would you immediately call the police and have her arrested and possibly executed. Or would you have a really strong talk with her and tell her to get the hell out of Indonesia before she gets caught?

And if your wife chose the latter path, would you ignore her and still shop your own daughter and see the break up of your own family, see all your other children hate you and disown you, see your own wife hate you and leave you, or would you put family first?

I know what I would do.

I do respect everyone's opinion here. I agree with the strict laws in Indonesia and other parts of Southeast Asia, and it is easy to say that your own children should also be executed if they get caught trafficking. But if you haven't actually been in that situation then you won't know how it feels.

“I think most parents who have a child jailed or sentenced to death with fly to Indonesia and do their best to help their child.”

That is certainly natural and to be expected but you might be surprised just how reverse the consequences of outside meddling, pressure and interference on the Indonesian judicial system can be.

The Schapelle Corby case is a perfect example.  She would have been out of Kerobokan prison here in Bali at least three years earlier if it weren't for all the family pressure and the pressure brought on by the Australian government.  Indonesia does not react well to interference being brought upon it by outside nations…nor should it. 

As to your points about what to do if it were your own child, don't you have any programs where you live that are similar to “Scared Straight?”  We do, and they are very effective. 

Law enforcement here in Indonesia is by and large set up with the police coming from the exact same Provinces and Regencies that they work.  For example, 99% of the police in Bali are Balinese.  This is like when I was growing up as a kid in a small town in the US.  The cops know all the local kids, and if they saw them headed the wrong way, they would step in and work with the kids and the kid's parents.  It's amazing what positive effect two or three days in our local hole in the wall jail cell can have on a 15 year old heading down the wrong path. 

I have no doubt in my mind that family and community have everything to do with keeping kids out of drug trouble.  It's pretty simple to see that where families and communities are strong, drug problems are minimal, if existent at all.  But then again, to see how effective that is, one has to live in such an environment and be a part of a community that stands totally united and committed to keeping drugs out of the hand of their children.   The end result is simple…none of those hypothetical questions you raise ever need to be addressed.

I'm living in Indonesia Ubudian, for a number of years. Yes I watch those programs along with anything else that is in English including Border Security Colombia. We all do all we can to bring up our children correctly with good moral values as I do myself. Occasionally they make mistakes by bad judgement or bad influences. They might for example go for a couple of weeks to Thailand for holidays and meet the wrong kind of people and stupidly be persuaded to carry drugs. If that were one of your sons would you call the police and expect him to be executed, or would you use your family influence to minimise the sentence? Of course we all hope that with a good moral education that we provide to our children that this type of situation never occurs. But we can never be 100% certain that our kids end up as we hope they will.

But I understand what all of you are saying. I think it just doesn't always turn out the way we hope. That's why I am for the death sentence for trafficking but would try my utmost to help my own children if they were every in that situation. My personal choice, but I also respect your own choice.

“I'm living in Indonesia Ubudian, for a number of years.”

That being the case you might consider revising your profile which currently reads, “currently living in Canada, in Calgary…want to move to Indonesia.”

Anyway, I'd likely react to the hypothetical scenario you present much like James said he would.  Meaning I would be looking within to see where I went wrong, where my wife went wrong, where all my kids' aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, teachers, coaches, local police, other members of our village, etc, etc, went wrong.  But frankly, I'm pretty convinced that would never be necessary…and in fact, there are no recorded instances of anyone in our village, for all the long years I've been living in it, ever being arrested or going to jail for any reason, either here or abroad.   

In 17 years I've only seen or heard of the police being in our village once…and that was to verify that a suicide was in fact a suicide and not a staged murder. 

A kid properly raised with endless love, education, attention and care is just about certain to turn out as an adult of strong character and sound common sense, and a set of moral values to guide them the rest of their lives.  You won't find anyone in my village of some 300 families to disagree with that.

"That's why I am for the death sentence for trafficking but would try my utmost to help my own children if they were every in that situation. My personal choice, but I also respect your own choice."

Sorry, but if you think my choice would be NOT to do everything I could on behalf of any of my boys in trouble with the law, then you've totally misunderstood me.  Of course I would do anything I possibly could.  My point is to avoid that from ever happening.