Artistic Censorship? lol

Lets see how quick this post disappears!  LOL   

its not so much "censorship" as "beating a dead horse", the topic in question had gotten far more press than it should - question: can i bring nude art to Kuwait. Answer: Yes (based on somebody already having brought in something similar). that is the golden answer.

everything else is discussion, debatable, we can talk art and culture till we are both blue in the face, but with that topic you reached a point of diminishing returns whereby the answer was a debate between censorship in kuwait and people's right to bear nudes (art).

so, closing the topic merely helps shift people's focus back to the other topics that are yet unresolved.

hope that clarifies that

imagine if you were subscribed to a topic , and keep getting email pings everytime somebody replies, only ot realize that not all the replies are relevant to you, some are merely talking amongst themselves.

I don't get pings, not that dedicated to the forum ... I check when I get in to check, might be in two minutes, might be in two days ... and now I have a separate post on the subject ... you don't have to subscribe to it ... lol 

Have a good eve friend! 

Yes - based on one person managing
No - Based on he likely problems against the likely gains if someone in power takes offence to it.
No - based on their very harsh anti porn laws

As for the thread - Priscilla's closing posts said it all.
Opinions regarding the 'art' mean nothing, unless you're an immigration officer or a cop in that country.
If you are, and take offence, the OP of that thread could easily find himself on a much earlier flight home than he'd planned for, or one several years later if the situation managed to get out of hand.

The trick is, regardless of your personal opinions, obey the laws and respect the general culture of the country you wish to visit.

Was it closed because it was uncomfortable?
Ner, the lady explained the reasons fully, and she's right.

How clueless you are (but not surprising), still hanging on to the static topic while the subject has evolved to address a more overlying issue of subjective manipulation by administrative staffing on subjects they remain bias upon... on cultural intolerance to sometimes opposing ideologies on a forum that should be welcoming of diversity in views as it claims to represent 'global' perspectives. Subjective based on her reference  "I think" and her total disregard for and misrepresentation of the phrase "Like everyone says here" in the face of 'several' dissenting opinions (because to recognize a differing opinion gives it a place at the discussion). 
I was even disappointed in a phrase used by someone else "got far more press then it should" (that alone turned me off to the validity of any further points posed within his response) as though any subject should be put in the metaphoric closet. 

I didn't give my topic related opinion on the old post (yes, I have one) ... I simply defended the 'right' of "all" opinions to be recognized.

Fred wrote:

Yes - based on one person managing
No - Based on he likely problems against the likely gains if someone in power takes offence to it.
No - based on their very harsh anti porn laws

As for the thread - Priscilla's closing posts said it all.
Opinions regarding the 'art' mean nothing, unless you're an immigration officer or a cop in that country.
If you are, and take offence, the OP of that thread could easily find himself on a much earlier flight home than he'd planned for, or one several years later if the situation managed to get out of hand.

The trick is, regardless of your personal opinions, obey the laws and respect the general culture of the country you wish to visit.

You know, it's funny, after reading this post and the original - the people who seemed to be 'most' offended by the subject were not even 'in' Kuwait.  lol

The Indonesian Expert might try keeping his focus on Indonesia / It looked like to me that Priscilla was just closing the topic to avoid pushback to her 'own' viewpoint / Legacy's trying but having a hard time staying neutral / Enig's back on his free speech kick / and everyone seems to be blowing the whole thing out of proportion because of the negative condonation of the subject

Personally, back to the original subject "I" wouldn't put something like that in my living room (especially the second mentioned item), not because I'm a prude but because it may make my occasional guests (or cleaners) misinterpret it's intent, or at the risk of overusing an already used term - uncomfortable / maybe my bedroom - if at all - 'my' choice to make
And legally, things aren't so black and white here in Kuwait - it's like alcohol (illegal) - having enough for personal consumption won't typically get you arrested in and of itself (maybe in combination with other issues) but getting caught trying to sell it may get you tossed in prison and or deported.  Same with this topic, bringing a couple items into country might depend who searches your stuff (if it's searched), and at worst you'll probably have it confiscated - on the other hand if you were caught bringing a container full of it into the country, you'd again probably be tossed in prison and or deported.  It's just the way things are here - no-ones going to come into your apartment 'randomly' searching for illegal items - unless someone specifically files a complaint or unless they were already there for some other purpose

ok, said my peace, you call all go back to your arguments 

Enigmausly wrote:

How clueless you are (but not surprising),

I didn't give my topic related opinion on the old post (yes, I have one) ... I simply defended the 'right' of "all" opinions to be recognized.

That right means nothing.

Whilst my personal opinion is clear, the stuff is total crap - I also made it very clear my opinion is of no value when compared to that of the local immigration and police.

Handing out your views on the subject might very well be very nice as freedom of speech, but it remains as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike,

The only thing that matters is the opinion of the local authorities, and that's very likely to be harsh.
The advice remains the same - don't take it as there is a serious possibility of trouble, but absolutely no gain in trying.

Freedom of speech is wonderful - explain it to the immigration officer who orders you put back on the aircraft and out of their country,

You'll notice "THEIR" country, meaning your version of right and wrong has no meaning at all when you go.

As for the comment about not being in that country - so what? - the facts don't change regardless of where someone happens to live.
Moving on to 'offended' - not really. The fact I believe it to be unadulterated crap doesn't mean I'm offended by it, just that I believe a festering dog poo on my office desk would be preferable to that tripe.

However - go ahead and advise the OP of the other thread to take it with him for the sake of free speech, but don't be surprised if the next thread is about how he was deported, tossed in gaol, or simply had it confiscated and destroyed.

Stuff freedom of speech to Hades, it just muddies the waters when the only issue is the attitude of the local authorities.
The only issue that does matter.

Fred wrote:

Enigmausly ... > I simply defended the 'right' of "all" opinions to be recognized. <

That right means nothing.

And that right there, tells me everything I need to know about you!  lol


One other clarification, I'm a resident here not a visitor, and I actually know 'one or two things' about the subject country ... where are you in Kuwait again?  Just curious...

so, what is the attitude to porn over there?

Fred wrote:

so, what is the attitude to porn over there?

Soooo, whats the attitude to "porn" pretty much everywhere (the bigger issue is in the definition, which again tends to be subjective) ... musta's view was fairly accurate for here

But once again, it's  not the topic, you just keep dragging the old subject back into this topic ...  lol

...

Since you avoided the question, I'll be more precise.

What is the official attitude to porn?

Is it illegal - do people get into trouble for having it, and can that be serious trouble?

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Kuwa … troduction

Under Islamic law, the crimes that carry defined penalties are murder, apostasy (rejection or desertion of Islam), adultery, fornication, homosexuality and theft. Interpretations of the law and punishments vary from state to state. Lesser offences might include debt, usury, alcohol and drug abuse, and use of pornography.

As an expatriate, you're subject, of course, to the laws of the country you're in. If you're thought to have broken a law, you're taken under arrest to a police station, questioned and instructed to make a statement. Up to this point, it's highly unlikely that you will be allowed access to outside help, either legal or consular. If the offence is deemed serious enough to warrant your detention, you might have to wait some time before your case comes up. You will be allowed legal representation, but everything will be conducted in Arabic.

Basically, you can complain about the forum restricting your freedom of expression all you like, but porn remains illegal, and the possibility of arrests remains real.

No matter how much you want to muddy facts with freedom of artistic expression, you can still end up in serious trouble if you take porn over there.

Anything else just doesn't matter, even if you don't like it.

Want some artistic censorship?

https://www.indexoncensorship.org/2012/ … l-content/

An art exhibition in Kuwait has been shut down three hours after opening. A group of men entered the exhibition of a collection of paintings from Kuwaiti artist Shurooq Amin, and removed the paintings,  claiming they had received a complaint over their content. Amin told Al-Qabas newspaper that those who closed down the show misinterpreted the meaning of the paintings to be disrespectful of the society's tradition.

You can play with words and mess with definitions until the cows come home, but porn is still illegal, and people still get arrested for it.

Advising anything but leaving the pornographic art at home is extremely dangerous, regardless of any freedom of artistic expression you would like to see.

This is the sort of stuff that caused the raid



If that was porn, what will they think of a man going down on a woman?

Again, you keep trying to push the 'current' topic towards some sort of "legal or religious oriented" debate (and your pointing out that kuwaitis can't even figure out their own interpretations of the law) ... were not walking that path ... the 'current' topic relates to the sites administrative censorship of topics that make their own staff uncomfortable regarding their personal convictions.  We stand up and discuss topics because the discussion itself is educational, because education promotes ideological reflection and growth, regardless of those who see it as dangerous to their standards (this is why certain groups exist these days fighting, kicking and screaming to hold on to self promoting, archaic based ideologies ... turn on any international new network to see it) ... real change comes in small bites ... comes through consistent repetitive reminders ... you can stand there and tell me how much my viewpoints don't matter and that dear sir only 'shows' me how much they do!!  lol 

Fred wrote:

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Kuwait/Kuwait-Guide/Legal-System/Introduction

Under Islamic law, the crimes that carry defined penalties are murder, apostasy (rejection or desertion of Islam), adultery, fornication, homosexuality and theft. Interpretations of the law and punishments vary from state to state. Lesser offences might include debt, usury, alcohol and drug abuse, and use of pornography.

lol, what a crock, I could see a couple other things on there I'd be much more worried about!     

Fred wrote:

An art exhibition in Kuwait has been shut down three hours after opening. A group of men entered the exhibition of a collection of paintings from Kuwaiti artist Shurooq Amin, and removed the paintings,  claiming they had received a complaint over their content. Amin told Al-Qabas newspaper that those who closed down the show misinterpreted the meaning of the paintings to be disrespectful of the society's tradition.

yeah, I remember that, a couple years ago now - but not sure what your point is - he didn't get arrested, as I said before, the stuffy shirt guys just came and took his stuff - quite lame -  lol

Enigmausly wrote:

Again, you keep trying to push the 'current' topic towards some sort of "legal or religious oriented" debate

The question was about the true situation, not your opinions on freedom of expression.
All that does is muddy the waters.
Pointless.

Fred wrote:

Since you avoided the question, I'll be more precise.

What is the official attitude to porn?

Is it illegal - do people get into trouble for having it, and can that be serious trouble?

ahhhhh, I'll take this one too - in the years I've been here, never heard of someone getting arrested for porno - although, there's a daily criminal report that comes out in the local paper, and I have seen something like "Drug Dealer arrested during raid, also found in possession of pornography" -  life in the sandbox!  lol

Fred wrote:

Enigmausly wrote:

Again, you keep trying to push the 'current' topic towards some sort of "legal or religious oriented" debate

The question was about the true situation, not your opinions on freedom of expression.
All that does is muddy the waters.
Pointless.

of course you would view it as muddy and pointless ... your still pushing your agenda

and I'm just staying on topic!  lol   


oh yes, and thanks!  over 200 views in the first 24hours!  at least we're entertaining!  lol

Very entertaining.

Thank you.

Enigmausly wrote:

of course you would view it as muddy and pointless ... your still pushing your agenda

Yes, there is an agenda.
The forum is to advise members, not to give opinions as to what you think should happen.
Your opinions regarding artistic expression might well be lovely, but the dude could well get into trouble if he takes porn into the country, listening to opinion, but thinking it's fact.

All it takes is one religiously conservative immigration officer, or one with my opinions of the 'art', and he could be seriously stuffed.

MustaKano wrote:

ahhhhh, I'll take this one too - in the years I've been here, never heard of someone getting arrested for porno -

http://www.menafn.com/1093679605/Kuwait … es?src=RSShttp://www.privateforces.com/index.php? … amp;id=670

You have now.

Fred wrote:

MustaKano wrote:

ahhhhh, I'll take this one too - in the years I've been here, never heard of someone getting arrested for porno - although, there's a daily criminal report that comes out in the local paper, and I have seen something like "Drug Dealer arrested during raid, also found in possession of pornography" -  life in the sandbox!  lol

.............................................

http://www.menafn.com/1093679605/Kuwait … es?src=RSShttp://www.privateforces.com/index.php? … amp;id=670

You have now.

If your going to quote me, use the entire quote - and as such your only proving my point - (five men parked at night off the side of the road in a taxi with the lights off, probably gays using drugs 'the sharp objects' - as I gave example to in my response, "part" of a something larger in nature -- I don't get the second example though, and how a US Attorney charging someone with having "child pornography" on his computer in the states has something to do with our discussion of Kuwait authorities actually looking for pornography in Kuwait? 

There's no Porno Police here - lol - no one really cares - it's just an excuse to add on to already existing accusations - besides, by your thought, any religious zealot with a badge (or maybe without here) could stop me at anytime for just about anything he (the individual) 'interprets' as wronging his viewpoint and have me hassled (at the very least) - I've been an expat for a long time now in multiple cultures and have very simply learned not to worry about such things, if I were that worried, then maybe its best that I just hide my head in the sand back home and live life in my own little box and tell others not to bring 'their' culture into 'my' community (I would laugh hysterically, but it's not that funny as it's happening in too many places around the world!)

The only thing I could probably add is -- Dude, get a life!!  lol

FACT: My husband and I bought a beautiful painting similar to one in question when we moved to Kuwait and NOTHING happened. No questions, no hard time, nada.

This isn't an opinion or what I think should happen, it's what actually happened because I have done so myself with NO issue. The OP asked for advice not to be judged for his choice in artwork.

ok; i think this has gone on for long enough.

little piece of info on the "Experts", there's one for every country, and no restriction on where they can post their views on the forum, as they're charged with "keeping the peace" i.e. it is up to ME to inform of any posts that could lead to the website being closed down by the ministry, these include for example people openly inviting others for gambling, men seeking one night stands, people posting their desire to purchase alocohol etc. amongst other things.

Experts do not close down posts, they simply flag 'em, write a quick description of why they feel this is offensive, and go on (rest assured i didnt flag the post with the nude art).

now, going thru the posts and the responses, i really dont think anyone appreciates the pot shots being thrown at Fred, which started off @ post #7, #10 & #25.

just like the point of respecting the laws of a country you are in, so to does it stand true for respecting the points of view of the forum you are on. so long as arguments are kept healthy i.e. above the belt, everything is fine. the minute we start discrediting someone by insulting them, know that we have jeered violently off course.

in highschool my friends mom painted at home. she had a very nice painting that would be considered "sexual". Once you are here there is nothing to say you cant get things done; whether you print a ginormous pic and have it framed at a shop (probably need to find a shop to print big things too - poster size) and you hang it up in your house, your call.

in the end, i cant remember who said it, but the topic DID in fact stray from being a question regarding "can i do xyz" to "how dare you try to do xyz", "xyz is not considered abc", "i would never socialize with anyone who considers xyz to be abc".

it became people giving their opinions on something, despite said opinions not being requested by the OP.

and AGAIN, Tina, glorious Tina, summed everything up by saying, "yes, you can because i did".

heck i smuggled in a small piece of "art" from Thailand for a guy i'd just met - that sounds weird but the story is REALLY cool.

so, relax everyone, its the weekend.

Well now I'm going to pipe in here with my views on what appears to be nothing more that one huge pity party on moderation and censorship:

To my way of thinking one of the most dangerous pieces of text ever written was the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, closely followed only by the Second!!! Why dangerous, because Americans for some odd reason, while they don't clearly understand the text itself and insist that it means there are no limits, seem to be of the misguided notion that it applies anywhere outside the territorial limits of the United States of America. WRONG!!! It does not apply in other sovereign nations, or on privately owned forum boards such as this one that are based in foreign nations.

Just as your Second Amendment Rights don't permit you to carry your precious firearms into a foreign nation (and you all seem to have been able to wrap your heads around that idea - well almost all) your First Amendment Rights don't allow you to say anything you want in a foreign country or on a private forum board. Hell you can't shout fire in a crowded theater back in the USofA unless it's really on fire! You can't hide behind the First Amendment if you were to do so... and all Americans know that to be true.

So why then is it that almost without exception when we see the complaints about moderation here on Expat-blog they're usually coming from American citizens. We're constantly being beaten over the heads by people who just can't seem to understand that: a) they waived any right to freedom of speech and agreed to moderation on this forum by applying; b) Expat-blog a privately owned forum board operates in almost every county on earth and thus must follow the local laws regarding offensive content or risk being restricted on the internet in that country; c) their comments (regardless where they are physically when making them) are subject to the legal requirements of the countries of the forum on which posted???

Regarding the original posting about the nude/sexual art, the very best possible advice was given a couple of times... just leave it behind. Why any right thinking person would risk being refused entry or worse immediate deportation over a piece of art is beyond me. I mean really, are we talking about one of the great masters here??? Mere logic dictates that if you think it's going to be offensive, or going to cause problems with immigrations or Customs then best to err on the side of caution. So yes, in that sense the topic thread got way of track and got far too much "press" and therefore should have been closed.

Members of the Experts Team as Legacy pointed out do not close topics, that is done by members of our administrative staff. Guess what? That's just a fact of life we ALL must deal with. Geez, I've been here for ages, have going on 10,000 postings now and even I'm subject to moderation and having topics closed. Get over it guys and gals, it's here to stay and it's here for a very good reason.

'nuf said!

Cheers,
James     Expat-blog Experts Team

That post about closes the thread.
Well said, James.

Wow … lol … just Wow!  Lol  … soooooo, many doors opened on that one … should I take the bait?  Lol

Legacy, I'm really trying to be good, but this clown just really wants to wind me up!  Lol  …

James, the more I read of your posts, the less respect I have for you!  (is that a pot shot?)  hmmmm  lol  … maybe I haven't yet ‘mastered' the art of generalizing (although I would better define it more ‘directed' then pot)   

At least we're back on topic, for the most part … I'll keep it there …

First of all, I'm probably the last person around to defend the average American and or their mentality while abroad (or even at home for that matter) … but … that said … I was raised to believe that “Everyone” who breaths on this planet has “rights” much more broadly defined than what any nation could possibly place on a piece of paper … I realize there are ‘certain people' around who rather dictate, as apposed to debate, idealisms  … for in the course of the dialogue, they would show just how really ignorant they are and possibly loose all respect necessary to impose their typically self serving convictions upon others (I could site a lot of ‘theological' examples of this but being where I'm at would probably end me up in much more hot water then the subject everyone's trying to push this post towards! – lol). 
Anyways, maybe my ‘expectations' of higher standards on a globalized forum are misplaced … (deleted, deleted, deleted)  lol  … wow, this is hard not taking ‘pot shots' …  he make it so easy! 

Guess I'll  keep it short … said most of what I needed in previous posts … that hasn't changed. 

Ciao Bea!   

I hate not having the last word, so I'll try.

You're wrong.

James the unsubtle has it right, as does Fred "a spade's a spade" Barnsley.

Your opinions mean nothing when a stroppy immigration officer could turn you around and kick you back home for having what he considers to be porn.

Enjoy your freedom of expression, but don't advise others to do something daft when you practice it.

is alright, shows your character ...

MustaKano wrote:

probably gays using drugs 'the sharp objects'

The only thing I could probably add is -- Dude, get a life!!  lol

Perhaps I could go for a gay life and take up drug use.
I'm more than a little unsure why you should want to bring that fabrication up, but it's really silly.

Fred wrote:

MustaKano wrote:

probably gays using drugs 'the sharp objects'

The only thing I could probably add is -- Dude, get a life!!  lol

Perhaps I could go for a gay life and take up drug use.
I'm more than a little unsure why you should want to bring that fabrication up, but it's really silly.

it's your choice dude - I say go for it!  lol

Well Enigmausly, you still just don't understand what was being said so I'll try and put it in much simpler terms and hopefully you'll understand.

You post something to a forum that the authorities in that country's forum don't like is it going to be YOU that they come looking for and come down on you like an old building collapsing around you??? Not bloody likely! They simply hold Expat-blog responsible of the content and YOU lose absolutely nothing (in financial terms) when they decide to pull the blog from the internet in that country. Expat-blog on the other hand loses significant advertising revenue, not only in that country, but right across the board when that happens. In their shoes would you (personally) risk that kind of consequence for any individual member? I can guarantee you wouldn't.

Did you bother to read Expat-blog's Terms & Conditions of Use when you registered as a member? You certainly should have, because by the mere act of completing your membership registration you acknowledged that you read, understood and will comply with those terms and conditions; part of which specifically gives Expat-blog sole discretion to moderate, edit or delete any content. That's the bottom line here.... you can get your Fruit of the Looms in as big a knot as you want, but that's just the way it goes around here.

Now put yourself in Julien's (owner of Expat-blog) shoes for a minute. He's busted his hump for over 10 years now to create Expat-blog and fashion it into what it is today. Many of us have also worked very hard to this end. We now have over a million members, most of whom are overjoyed to have such a platform to advise, inform and educate them about expat life. Now one of those million members comes along, starts rocking the boat and thinks that everything is going to be changed just to suit them. What would you do if YOU were Julien??? I know that if it were me, I'd simply jetison the member and be done with it. I bet you would too.

If you're so concerned about your "Freedom of Speech" and/or "Freedom of Expression" then you're quite free to find another site that has some, if you can find one. Most of the sites I know of moderate posting and don't even explain why, at least here you're given the courtesy of an explanation. Do you want more for that HUGE registration fee you paid to join our midst?

Cheers,
James     Expat-blog Experts Team