Ecuador is on the brink of decriminalizing the use of all drugs

Casinos outlawed, cocaine being de-criminalized.

I think that you, Top Cat, are perhaps best qualified to explain this apparent contradiction to our forum.

cccmedia in Quito

Me, explain government logic? What?    I'm not your cat for that.

Personally, I'd like to see a ban on banning things.

And I told you before, mark my words, your casinos will make a comeback. I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of back room discussions going on right now. They're just discussing the best maneuvers to loophole their own laws without looking like fools. They will find the appropriate way. It may take time.

We little people do as we're told by the great wizards of wisdom in government.

gardener1 wrote:

What? ...I'm not your cat for that.

....mark my words, your casinos will make a comeback. I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of back room discussions going on right now. They're just discussing the best maneuvers to loophole their own laws without looking like fools. They will find the appropriate way. It may take time.

Based on your analysis, you clearly are a Casino Cat.

cccmedia in Quito

gardener1 wrote:

Ecuador is on its way to decriminalizing drug use

Ecuador is on the brink of decriminalizing the use of all drugs.

President Rafael Correa's grouping in congress is pushing a watershed bill that would regulate consumption of outlawed drugs, including marijuana and cocaine, along with alcohol and other legal highs, like industrial solvents.

The draft for a new drug law says narcotics use should be managed “not by control, repression and even criminalization, but from the perspective of prevention” (page 5 of the bill).

That would include providing treatment and rehabilitation, and replacing jail with small fines, for drug users. Dealers would still face time behind bars, although less than previously.

Read more:
http://www.globalpost.com/article/65198 … lize-drugs

Breaking the Taboo (2012) is a pretty good documentary about the war on drugs. Can find it on Hulu if anyone is ever interested.

Alcoholism, addiction...of course they're huge public health issues....everywhere...do you think EC is in a position to deal with them?....These poor souls get swept under the rug one way or another

suefrankdahl wrote:

Alcoholism, addiction...of course they're huge public health issues....everywhere...do you think EC is in a position to deal with them?

Probably not.

So perhaps it makes sense here and in places around the globe to stop incarcerating users who have no intent to sell.

cccmedia in Quito

cccmedia wrote:

suefrankdahl wrote:

Alcoholism, addiction...of course they're huge public health issues....everywhere...do you think EC is in a position to deal with them?

Probably not.

So perhaps it makes sense here and in places around the globe to stop incarcerating users who have no intent to sell.

cccmedia in Quito

If saving on decriminalisation means more money for street workers and education/prevention, it makes sense. 

If they plan to give less jail time to drug dealers/distributors/producers, not sure I understand.

yulrun wrote:

If saving on decriminalisation means more money for street workers and education/prevention, it makes sense. 

If they plan to give less jail time to drug dealers/distributors/producers, not sure I understand.

Pretty sure the major players still face hard penalties.

At what point do you look at things and admit that the current policies have by in large been pretty big failures?

Here's a link to some stats on the past 14 years in Portugal where they decriminalized drugs. It's had solid success. By no means has it been perfect, but it also certainly has been far from a disaster.

http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years … -happening

By the way Ecuador is unlikely to be the only country in Latin America decriminalizing all drugs.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?Categor … eId=341018

J600rr: Thanks for the Portugal link. Very good info, it appears to not be a huge success, but far from the disaster some think decriminalization might be.

BobH wrote:

J600rr: Thanks for the Portugal link. Very good info, it appears to not be a huge success, but far from the disaster some think decriminalization might be.

I don't know a lot of people who are not taking drugs by being afraid of legal consequences.  It's more a question of values, moral and health (I think).  This all comes down to education.  If you see your parents taking drugs (even if they go to jail), chances are you will too.

Putting money in education/prevention instead of prison (for the small guys) is not a bad idea.  I don't if the Uruguay project will be positive, but I think it makes sense to get rid of the illegal "supply chain".

BobH wrote:

J600rr: Thanks for the Portugal link. Very good info, it appears to not be a huge success, but far from the disaster some think decriminalization might be.

And I think that is kind of the reality of the whole situation. Anyone who thinks that legalizing drugs will make all the problems go away are wrong, and anyone who thinks that legalizing drugs will be a a complete disaster where society is on the verge of collapse is wrong. As everyone knows, drugs, drug use, and drug addiction will always be a reality. There are no easy answers, but to continue down the same path without at least trying new methods to combat the problem is a mistake (in my opinion).

Thanks for recommending "Breaking the Taboo"  I just watched it and have already passed the link along to others.  I found it at Vimeo and it is free for streaming there, too.  Excellent coverage of the utterly failed War on Drugs, and other countries's efforts to change direction, usually through decriminalization and other more intelligent policies than just making any kind of drug use criminal.  But we here in the U.S. are slow learners, apparently. 

Here's the Vimeo link: vimeo.com/73878086

A big part of the problem is that someone must admit to having a problem and be ready to do what they must to solve the problem.  Sure an alcoholic or an addict will take treatment over jail time, but what happens when the treatment is over, when they must treat their disease in the real world?  The rate of success is dismal.  I agree to not lock up users, but less people in jail is going to change the street drug scene very little, just have more users on the streets instead of in jail.

mugtech wrote:

A big part of the problem is that someone must admit to having a problem and be ready to do what they must to solve the problem.  Sure an alcoholic or an addict will take treatment over jail time, but what happens when the treatment is over, when they must treat their disease in the real world?  The rate of success is dismal.  I agree to not lock up users, but less people in jail is going to change the street drug scene very little, just have more users on the streets instead of in jail.

Good points Mugtech. Personally feel the whole war on drugs has been an utter failure, and think we should try something different. Practically speaking, drugs are a reality, and are always going to be a problem in every society, and country (some more than others). Think as a society we probably have to admit that there will always be addicts, no matter what you do, but do you treat that as a health problem, or a criminal problem? Is it a morality problem? Better be careful about legislating morality. That doesn't usually work. Why can we admit prohibition was a failure, and legalize alcohol with the full knowledge of how deadly, and addictive that drug can be, and with all of the known health problems associated with that drug? Yet other drugs are illegal, and you'll wind up in jail for them. Can't have it both ways. If you want to be objective then make alcohol, cigarettes, and most prescription drugs that are addictive illegal, and start locking all those people up as well.

j600rr wrote:

mugtech wrote:

A big part of the problem is that someone must admit to having a problem and be ready to do what they must to solve the problem.  Sure an alcoholic or an addict will take treatment over jail time, but what happens when the treatment is over, when they must treat their disease in the real world?  The rate of success is dismal.  I agree to not lock up users, but less people in jail is going to change the street drug scene very little, just have more users on the streets instead of in jail.

Good points Mugtech. Personally feel the whole war on drugs has been an utter failure, and think we should try something different. Practically speaking, drugs are a reality, and are always going to be a problem in every society, and country (some more than others). Think as a society we probably have to admit that there will always be addicts, no matter what you do, but do you treat that as a health problem, or a criminal problem? Is it a morality problem? Better be careful about legislating morality. That doesn't usually work. Why can we admit prohibition was a failure, and legalize alcohol with the full knowledge of how deadly, and addictive that drug can be, and with all of the known health problems associated with that drug? Yet other drugs are illegal, and you'll wind up in jail for them. Can't have it both ways. If you want to be objective then make alcohol, cigarettes, and most prescription drugs that are addictive illegal, and start locking all those people up as well.

Its kinda like gay marriage, as the older generation dies off the newer generations wonder what all the fuss was about.  The way weed legalization/decriminalization is going, it could be a few years yet, but the majority will finally realize what a failure the war on drugs has been and take a more liberal/libertarian view of it all.  Interested to use EC as a trial run.

mugtech wrote:

Its kinda like gay marriage, as the older generation dies off the newer generations wonder what all the fuss was about.  The way weed legalization/decriminalization is going, it could be a few years yet, but the majority will finally realize what a failure the war on drugs has been and take a more liberal/libertarian view of it all.  Interested to use EC as a trial run.

Which is why I've made the point before about my generation, and the generation a bit younger than mine. In general we're socially liberal, and fiscally conservative. What is divisive, and tabboo issues to older generations, are issues that aren't to us. As my generation is now starting to have a more prominent role in business, and political leadership, and the generation below mine is starting to enter the workforce, and become of voting age, things will start to change. Nothing major for another 10-15 yrs, but changes will happen. Not saying is a good, or bad thing, but we just see things a lot differently than the older generations. You older people can accept that, or not accept it, but it doesn't change the fact that's what's going to happen.

Interesting article from Colorado, where as you know pot was legalized.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/new-school … on/208751/

I realize there is many different variables, and is still probably too soon to make a definitive statement into the success or failure of the legalization, but so far if anyone wants to look around at some statistics, pretty much every reference has violent crimes, and other crimes down across the board. Hasn't exactly been a breakout of untameable violence as some critics predicted.

So, half a year has gone by. Has there been any follow up? Did the laws get changed? In my opinion, Ecuador could solve some of it's economic problems by becoming the Amsterdam of S America, legalizing, rather than just decriminalizing, and then taxing drugs at a high rate.

It's no shock that "The War on Drugs" has been a major fail !!

In the U.S. especially, it has turned into a major money machine. The convicted who get jail time, means more prisons, which equals more jobs etc. It has turned into a monster who now runs amok.

In the courts, the punishment is not equaling the crime. It should be pretty clear to even the most casual observer that the war has failed. To make matters worse, there is an influx of synthetic drugs going around now that are killing  people, and are not even listed on a drug schedule. It seems every week or so a new "Not for Human Consumption" drug hits the stores and is sold as an aromatic. The police don't even know where to start, as they have to test the substance then decide if it is illegal or not. The whole situation is nuts. Drain cleaner and rat poison are not illegal, but they are found in various drugs all the time. The end result is death.

I don't know what the answer is, but when people get mentally and or physically dependent on a substance which eventually kills them, and their entire daily life revolves around the next fix this is a big problem. It seems the entitled do drugs for entertainment, and the impoverished do drugs to escape their lifestyle.

Having said that, if more or all drugs are legal, how will it affect society overall in the long run? I don't think this would be a positive thing. Amsterdam has been pretty liberal in this way to a point, but they are still problems even there.

Life in the world today is very stressful, probably more so than in the past. People are seeking more and more ways to escape their daily reality, unfortunately many of these ways are very destructive. Destructive to the person, the family and ultimately to society as a whole.

In a time when stress alone kills people, I can't see making more drugs available to people as being a good thing.

The drugs are already available to the people, just as alcohol was during prohibition.

JK, Yes many drugs are available now and have been.

As an American, I understand and embrace our long history of our liberty to disagree. On this site as well as in general discussion my aim is not conflict, nor is it to establish a state of I'm right and you are wrong. I like others have my own opinions, based on personnel life experiences.

Yes, at this point I am clearly "Off Topic". I felt a need to say this because it seems lately there has been much dialog resulting in conflict. There are many intelligent posters here, with a great deal of valuable input. Luckily, my life choices have endowed me with a very broad range of experiences. Having said that, I in no way consider myself Superior. When given the opportunity I do try to share what knowledge I have, and gravitate to others who clearly know more than myself.

Okay, back "On Topic",

I do feel that if all drugs were made legal then what used to be a secret exchange to buy would be an open transaction. This would expose many people to drugs that normally would not even be thinking about it.

Once it is accepted as okay, then the number of people openly possessing drugs would increase. Currently raising teenagers this is just another obstacle to overcome. I personally would rather not have an easy temptation available. Do I trust my kids judgement, within reason yes, but what I cannot judge is the decision making of their friends.

Peer pressure is a very powerful thing, and once you have taken that step you cannot go back. Life for teenagers is a very strange and confusing time. I am not so foolish as to believe that even though we have had "The Talk", that things will still not happen. I have explained in detail what drugs, alcohol, etc. are all about, they get the good, the bad, and the ugly. Not as a scare tactic but to give them a solid base of knowledge to make a good decision as well as educate what friends will listen.

Simply removing or never having certain temptations goes a long way. I was a drug and alcohol counselor for many years in the Military. The average age of service members was 18 - 25. At that age they manage to get into every situation you can think of and some you cannot. It did not take long to understand that lecture after lecture on don't do this or that, is a waste of time and can often lead to curiosity and bad decisions.

Instead of scare tactics and videos of worst case results, I simply gave it to them straight. If you use this or that, and take this action or that, this is what you can expect as a result. I focused on life goals as well as short term goals, and how to reach them. Was this 100% successful? no. However, I did have a significant amount of Soldiers and Sailors popping up and thanking me for my straight forward approach. The most common remark was "What you said stuck, I got it".

Realistically you cannot remove every temptation, you cannot lock people away from the "Big, Bad World". You can instill good moral values, with straight forward cause and effect talks. Putting further unnecessary temptation under a persons nose, I feel is a mistake. Should each person be able to decide what is right, wrong or dangerous? You bet, can all people do this? No. No one man can save the world, but as one man I can as much as possible control the environment of my family, to keep them safe from themselves as well as others. For this reason alone I would not agree to legalization of any form of dangerous drug. This includes alcohol, and cigarettes as well. 

As a parent and responsible adult, all I can do is provide the best tools for success.   

But that's just me, trying to control and live in my little world.

For many if weed is legal then they will never wind up in contact with others  that sell cocaine and opiates.  The biggest known gateway drug is tobacco, no one thinks making that illegal would be successful.

mugtech wrote:

For many if weed is legal then they will never wind up in contact with others  that sell cocaine and opiates.  The biggest known gateway drug is tobacco, no one thinks making that illegal would be successful.

Thank you for pointing that out mugtech. Not sure we can emphatically say the above is 100% true, but there has been much more evidence over the last several years pointing towards alcohol, and tobacco as the real gateway drugs.

I certainly respect GMC's opinion, and think having a rational discussion about drugs, and drug abuse is a step in the right direction. I am on the side that thinks it's more of a medical issue, and that decriminalizing drugs is a step in the right direction towards accepting the harsh realities of the situation, and hopefully moving forward to get things under better control. Am I right? Have no idea, but right now it's like having a sports team that has finished dead last every year for the last 50 years, and saying you don't want to make a change because you don't know what the results will be. The results absolutely suck right now.

j600rr wrote:

Right now it's like having a sports team that has finished dead last every year for the last 50 years, and saying you don't want to make a change because you don't know what the results will be. The results absolutely suck right now.

The moribund Pittsburgh Pirates refused to give Ralph Kiner a pay increase one year even though he'd hit over 50 home runs.  The boss told Kiner, "We could have finished last without you."

cccmedia in Quito

cccmedia wrote:

j600rr wrote:

Right now it's like having a sports team that has finished dead last every year for the last 50 years, and saying you don't want to make a change because you don't know what the results will be. The results absolutely suck right now.

The moribund Pittsburgh Pirates refused to give Ralph Kiner a pay increase one year even though he'd hit over 50 home runs.  The boss told Kiner, "We could have finished last without you."

cccmedia in Quito

Classic

mugtech wrote:

cccmedia wrote:

j600rr wrote:

Right now it's like having a sports team that has finished dead last every year for the last 50 years, and saying you don't want to make a change because you don't know what the results will be. The results absolutely suck right now.

The moribund Pittsburgh Pirates refused to give Ralph Kiner a pay increase one year even though he'd hit over 50 home runs.  The boss told Kiner, "We could have finished last without you."

cccmedia in Quito

Classic

Yeah. That was a good one ccc

Mugtech, I must respectfully disagree.

20 years ago, you would be more correct. However today, a dealer of marijuana, can and often does recommend other mind altering substances. As it would happen my wife and I recently had an open follow up discussion with our 20 year old son and Architectural student at UDLA.

I happened to be coming through the door one evening when he and a friend were on their way out. The unmistakable scent of marijuana, was indeed present on the friends clothing. This prompted an immediate non threatening talk. He admitted he had several friends that had recreational use of marijuana. He indicated that he did not partake, and at that point we had no reason to doubt him.

So I took advantage of the opportunity and asked what else was out there and in use. He indicated that several club drugs, i.e. extacy where popular as well as cocaine. He said other drugs could be fairly easy to obtain like Heroine. This did not give me a warm a fuzzy feeling. He said the dealers do offer other "Party Drugs". This has lead to a number of casual friends using other substances. Apparently the synthetic drug craze happening in the U.S. is not as popular or available, yet.

I like to think that we have dodged that bullet, due to our constant "Road Talks". That is whenever the four of us are on the road somewhere, even to Mass the boys request a story. From a young age I have always been a bit of an adrenaline junky, and life in the Military can provide the means for a great deal of stimulation. The stories of my exploits do however, always come with a lesson. Much to my wife's dismay, I have yet grow out of this. For example, just the other day my wife arrived at home to find a crowd of neighbors standing in the street watching as I demonstrated to our 15 year old the proper way to repel from our 5 story building while inverted. Yes, that night I received "The Talk", again. I will upload a picture if I can figure out how.

In my opinion our two way open communication helps prevent certain issues from becoming a problem. Legal or illegal, temptation can be a powerful force, and many will succumb to it. While serving as Drug and Alcohol Counselor, and the Urinalysis Coordinator for several commands, I underwent many schools on the subjects. I learned about drugs that I had, at the time never even heard of. In addition to the traditional drugs or more common; marijuana, hashish, cocaine, LSD, heroine, mushrooms etc.There are now hundreds of new compounds available and new ones popping up weekly.

Yes, marijuana, cocaine, mushrooms, hashish and a few others are initially natural. The problem is by the time they get to the end user, they are often laced with other compounds, either to add weight or create a return customer. If this does not kill you outright, it makes it easier to sell you other drugs. Small manufacturers and dealers do this all the time. You can watch a You Tube video that shows you in your own kitchen how to cut a small amount of Methamphetamine with other chemicals to increase the quantity, which equals more money. Also since the 1980's the potency of marijuana has gone from 3-4% THC to 11-13% THC today, by way of cross pollination and the influx of laboratory marijuana. It's crazy, you would think a person with the grey matter to create stronger pot, would be better motivated to cure cancer !!?

There are many people who have an addictive personality, take avid drinkers. They can and sometimes do become a functional alcoholic. I have known a few. Then you take a drinker, say here in Quito. Alcohol is expensive. Many drugs which can give a similar affect, with little or no hangover are relatively cheap. How much of a leap would it be to jump to, what are now legal drugs? I see it as a fire waiting to jump the road.

NOTE: I have nothing against people who drink, responsibly.   

Will legalization make things better or worse? I really don't know. In some ways perhaps, in others maybe not, I guess we will find out. What I do know is my kids will have the knowledge to make good decisions and the ability to lead a responsible happy life. I hope all those who read this post will be able to to the same.

GMC, I do think decriminalizing opiates would be dangerous. I think the evidence on marijuana is overwhelming... it's less harmful than alcohol and tobacco, and has legitimate uses both in medicine and for stress relief. I respect your consistency when you advocate for banning tobacco and alcohol as well. Unfortunately, I think your ideas, if followed, would turn every nation into a mafia run state. Every time you make an addictive substance illegal, you give the mafias a gift. You hand them more power. Cocaine, I'm conflicted about. It's clearly dangerous. It's harmed my family. To me, it's a question of lesser evils. I think the harm caused by legalization is less than the harm caused by creating a black market.

I understand and respect your fears and concerns for your children. As someone who grew up around drug culture, I believe I makes little difference if a drug is legal or not, it makes a world of difference who your children's friends are and if your kids respect your wisdom and advice.

JK,

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with much of what you say. Having seen this issue from several angles, it surely is a mess. As you probably know every drug we take is a poison, and only works as intended when used as directed.

I agree, marijuana alone can have uses, besides I have never heard of anyone getting high and driving reckless, robbing a bank, or committing any violent crime for that matter. I don't see raiding the cookie jar a serious problem for society. I am the last person who would advocate more control over people. I guess I am just focusing on what I would perceive as the worst case scenario. 

I have intention of taking it to the streets, I will wait and see how it goes. This is one situation when I would gladly be wrong.

As a side note: My wife recently informed me that I seldom admit that I am wrong !? Apparently I normally opt for "I was mistaken". After thinking about it, In my defense I pointed out that as a Senior Chief Petty Officer in the United States Navy, I am bound by and expected to adhere to the code of the "Chief Petty Officer".

The first rule of a Chief Petty Officer is, "A Chief is never wrong, only sometimes mistaken". I wound up losing that discussion as well...

That's okay, it all good....

GMC, I like that we can have a civil conversation about this despite the fact that we are coming from opposite ends of the idealogical spectrum. I do take issue with "As you probably know every drug we take is a poison, and only works as intended when used as directed." I don't agree that either of those assertions are entirely true. That is, unless you want to expand the definition of poison to the point where many foods would also be considered poisons. Sit two people down and have one eat sugar and the other marijuana... who do think will die first? Hell, pound for pound bananas would probably kill you first. Also, from my experience, taking a medicine is often a crap shoot. I've been half way through a prescription only to have another doc tell me to half my dosage because the first doc was wrong. Medicine is just as much an art as a science.

GMC:
My point is if only grass were legal, then one could buy it and never have people trying to sell one anything else.  I have heard no reports of any grass stores in Washington or Colorado trying to sell anything but said weed.  It would keep many potheads out of the whole illegal drug world, certainly less people in prison.  I personally don't drink or smoke or do any drugs, but I see no sense in making alcohol, tobacco or Mary Jane illegal.  Addiction should be treated, not punished, but opiates and cocaine should remain illegal.

Ok, point taken,

What I was implying was that any medicine taken in excess reaches the point of being toxic, as most medications have negative side affects, some even at relatively low dosages. You are correct, that almost anything taken in excess very well may kill you. Many don't realize that even seemingly harmless vitamin "C" can cause an overdose and negative side affects.

I have learned the hard way i.e E.R. visit to question everything a Doctor prescribes, you would be surprised how many Doctors are not aware of conflicts between various medications. On the other hand, how could they? There are so many medications out there it may warrant it's own specialty... 

Death by "Banana", may not be such a bad way to go. Better at least than, let's say rectal cancer..

GMC(SW) wrote:

Ok, point taken,


Death by "Banana", may not be such a bad way to go. Better at least than, let's say rectal cancer..

They call it mellow yellow.

Then we are close to being on the same page... but I would prefer that cocaine be taken out of the hands of the narcos as well. Perhaps a legal but low potency version is the answer. Sort of the same concept of allowing alcohol but not make you go blind alcohol.

Mugtech,

I agree and was speaking mostly to the on the street dealers, not so much the stores. However, there are shops that now sell the "Aromatics", which is pure poison, and causing law enforcement a huge headache. They are "Head Shoppes", and not the licensed marijuana retailers.   

In the future I will endeavor to make myself more clear in my meanings, as well as examples.

jessekimmerling wrote:

Then we are close to being on the same page... but I would prefer that cocaine be taken out of the hands of the narcos as well. Perhaps a legal but low potency version is the answer. Sort of the same concept of allowing alcohol but not make you go blind alcohol.

The "go blind" alcohol produced during US Prohibition was actually a product of government invention, requiring that toxic chemicals be mixed with non-consumption alcoholic products knowing that those products would find their way into the consumption market. Fairly fascinating intentional poisoning of the people, by Government That Knows What's Best For You. Even if the fix for the problem kills you faster than the problem ever would have.

Slate covers it here:
The Chemist's War
The little-told story of how the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition with deadly consequences.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an … ingle.html


And a brilliant article from the New Yorker some years ago:
The Jake Leg
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/09/15/jake-leg

gardener1,

Thanks for the info, it is very interesting, and at the same time very disturbing. The Military also has a history of experimentation with its captive audience. Pyridostigmine bromide pills were given to U.S. forces during Desert Storm. I was lucky and managed to dodge that bullet. I know of soldiers who had various reactions as a result.