Newbies' questions regarding employers' cash withholdings & contracts

(accidental double post)

hs0zfe wrote:

A colleague had part of her salary withheld. Her boss wants to have some kind of cash reserve for situations when he can fine her.

What is the legal situation regarding such practices in the absence of a written contract?

My job requires me to take buses - getting the bus fare reimbursed is not a biggie. But some folks have been charging me double the normal rate. With time, this is getting annoying. Not all foreigners are loaded 

In the absence of a written contract and/or work permit I doubt anything can be done and even with those two things I doubt anything could be done that would be worth the effort.

For me personally, the day my employer notified me that they were withholding a portion of my salary in order to pay for hypothetical future "fines" would neatly coincide with my last day on the job. I'd have to eat the portion of the salary withheld but I wouldn't trust such an employer to pay me in full anyways so I'd cut my losses. I would try to have a conversation with them about it first (as a last-ditch effort I'd probably say that I really need the money right away because I was not previously aware of this policy and the money is needed for rent, grandma's operation or something to that effect and ask if they could take it out of the next pay period instead. Then if the money was paid in full I'd quit) but the bottom line would be that I don't agree with that policy and if that is to be the case I would need to seek other opportunities.

It doesn't make sense anyways because if the employer wanted to "fine" the employee they could just take the money from the following pay period, why would they need an extra reserve from previous pay periods?

Buses...I'm assuming you're talking about long distance buses. I doubt you're concerned about the cost of city buses. I've never been charged any extra on either. Do any of the big bus companies serve the areas you travel between? I usually use Phuong Trang/FUTA bus but I know they don't serve some of the more rural areas.

If you lived in one of the moderately-sized cities I don't think you'd be having half of the problems you bring up here...

Thanks, Nam, for yet another most helpful post!

Yes, the place is somewhere in the sticks and while the extra 10,000 D is no big deal, I have been feeling like the sucker I am.
^^^
As an update, I was just advised that my salary will be paid "after 45 days of working".    But they would "give me an advance". Yeah, right. "Dear Boss, how about advancing my November salary now?" But then stuff gets lost in translation.

I try to handle bills by paying them asap Can't see the benefit for a small business of deferring payroll obligations. Interest? What kind of interest is paid by a bank on VND deposits? *** I thought a monthly salary was customary?

This might very well be negotiating tactics. See when someone's flinching. One gets what one negotiates!

Hi

Actually, the employer have no right to fine employees in cash. They can only 1. Reprimand 2. Prolongation of the wage rise period for no more than 6 months; removal from office and 3. Dismissal.

Article 128, Labor Code 2012: Prohibited acts when handling violations of labor discipline
1. ...
2. Imposing fines or salary cut as disciplinary actions;
....

Article 16, Item 3 Decree 95/2013: The employer shall be liable to a fine of from 10,000,000 VND to 15,000,000 VND when committing one of the following acts:
a)...
b) Imposing fines or salary cut as disciplinary actions;
...

hs0zfe wrote:

A colleague had part of her salary withheld. Her boss wants to have some kind of cash reserve for situations when he can fine her.

What is the legal situation regarding such practices in the absence of a written contract?

My job requires me to take buses - getting the bus fare reimbursed is not a biggie. But some folks have been charging me double the normal rate. With time, this is getting annoying. Not all foreigners are loaded 

Is your colleague foreign?
Does she have a labour contract or just verbal agreement(ie. working cash money outside the legal boundaries of employing foreigners)?

If so,there's no leg to stand on.
There's a language centre that doesn't pay it's foreign teachers for the first 2 weeks as a security.HOWEVER.....pay day is at the end of the month.So if you start working on the 16th working day,you have to wait and extra month for your initial 2 weeks salary.And then you're only paid that initial 2 weeks.
As for getting charged more for products and services,I think that's just part of the deal here.
If your wife or partner is known in your community,you won't likely be overcharged because if they do and your partner finds out,then she's just as likely to cause a stir with the shop owner/xe om/butcher etc.

Oh and does this look familiar?

hs0zfe wrote:

As an update, I was just advised that my salary will be paid "after 45 days of working". But they would "give me an advance". Yeah, right. "Dear Boss, how about advancing my November salary now?" But then stuff gets lost in translation.

THIS is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL. My company has a payroll of about 40. Weekly get remunerated (into their banks) in SEVEN DAYS with deductions made; monthly get the same (no overtime - flat rate - same deductions every month). Since salaries are less complicated we pay everyone at the same time.

YOU are getting RIPPED. No employer can 'fine' an employee - that is the job of Cong An and very nice receipts they give you, too - from the bank.

hs0zfe wrote:

I try to handle bills by paying them asap. Can't see the benefit for a small business of deferring payroll obligations. Interest? What kind of interest is paid by a bank on VND deposits? *** I thought a monthly salary was customary?

This might very well be negotiating tactics. See when someone's flinching. One gets what one negotiates!

Are you even legal in this job? Do you have a Work Permit? What sort of work is it?

Interest in VN is less than inflation - that's one of the reasons we pay on time.  The only reason your employer is doing it is to rip you off when he fires you (I am bankrupt). Mention something about going to the Labour and Veterans Affairs Department (take a VN speaking person).

The Labour Act has teeth - go download an English version of it.

Jaitch wrote:

The Labour Act has teeth - go download an English version of it.

Inbox me if any of you need one.

Employee  calls it fine. Employer calls it compensation.

Dont use law here. if you accuse the boss and win, you are still a lose who has to pay much: time, no job (sure unenployed),..Oral contract is ruled but unclear. Your friend/you should have a talk with the boss. Try to study negotiation skill.

About bus ticket, should discuss with Mr. Boss too cos he has to cover this fee and he will try to find the best solution for you as help himself to save money.

I also agree that negotiation is good.  And using law properly when negotiating is better. but don't make the boss think that the employee is attacking him by law

Frankly, I would find another job if I were you. I had similar problems with AMA in Vinh City. You could try the legal route; but, in the end, it'd be the same result (other employment).

If they're dishonest now, expect that trend to continue. With so many employment opportunities (including free lancing), why would you put up with this behavior?

Dejavu.dot wrote:

Dont use law here. if you accuse the boss and win, you are still a lose who has to pay much: time, no job (sure unenployed),..Oral contract is ruled but unclear. Your friend/you should have a talk with the boss. Try to study negotiation skill.

Nhi wrote:

I also agree that negotiation is good.  And using law properly when negotiating is better. but don't make the boss think that the employee is attacking him by law

Knowing your rights give you a whole new position in negotiation. Its different between "knowing your rights but choose to accept it" and "do not know your rights and have to accept it", at least from psychological side.

Maybe if the OP knew how much his rights be violated by this employer, he would know that this employer is terrible and find another job sooner without confusing like this.

jimbream wrote:

hs0zfe wrote:

A colleague had part of her salary withheld. Her boss wants to have some kind of cash reserve for situations when he can fine her.

What is the legal situation regarding such practices in the absence of a written contract?

My job requires me to take buses - getting the bus fare reimbursed is not a biggie. But some folks have been charging me double the normal rate. With time, this is getting annoying. Not all foreigners are loaded 

Is your colleague foreign?
Does she have a labour contract or just verbal agreement(ie. working cash money outside the legal boundaries of employing foreigners)?

If so,there's no leg to stand on.
There's a language centre that doesn't pay it's foreign teachers for the first 2 weeks as a security.HOWEVER.....pay day is at the end of the month.So if you start working on the 16th working day,you have to wait and extra month for your initial 2 weeks salary.And then you're only paid that initial 2 weeks.
As for getting charged more for products and services,I think that's just part of the deal here.
If your wife or partner is known in your community,you won't likely be overcharged because if they do and your partner finds out,then she's just as likely to cause a stir with the shop owner/xe om/butcher etc.

Oh and does this look familiar?
[img align=c]http://xn--rolf-khler-jcb.de/privat/Hobby/RD%20350%20YPVS/RD-Bilder/RD350YPVS/RD350YPVS_12.JPG[/url]

Hey Jim
my RD had a different paint job and lighter red, but the same small fairings... I took it all over Europe. Once I rode about 800 km. Awkward moments when she fumigated a Police station with an open door in the morning or overheated in traffic in France. She broke down in Switzerland but the car club paid for the return and my train ticket...

Well, my colleague is from a Filipina and she refused to sign the contract given to her. (There appears to be a common practice regarding lying to attract new staff when it comes to hours and even the location of the work place

That center has very few students and is unlikely to break even, if the owner pays himself just 1,000 VND  But he advertises a full time job with 24-26 hours. I fell for such a spiel and then had to pay 1.6 M for the repair of his motor scooter. Need I mention that one month later I received exactly 0 Dong for the hours I've worked there? ** I've been open about my concerns. With just a hand full of classes, this couldn't work out for someone needing more than $ 500 a month. The solution? Contracting out of the staff. One evening, I was told that I would have to take the bus at 5 am to a town some >50 km away. The 100,000 Dong bus fare was never reimbursed, despite promises. Okay, so I'm doing this to reach a class starting at 7 am. But with even the bus fare not being reimbursed, it was becoming crazy.

The Filipina can't get the hours she needs either. And yet another ad is out there, promising a full time job while misstating the town the center is located in. HA LONG BAY sounds sooo much nicer, doesn't it? 

Maybe this ain't gonna work out. I'm deeply concerned about new students not getting books their mates have etc. The stench of a pig on the premises doesn't help either. Nor does that 45 days rule (I haven't signed the contract as it doesn't say anything about taxes, social security, notice period for me... THEY can fire me at will any time. The contract is not written by a lawyer and I'm wondering how on earth this is gonna play out if there's an issue getting the bus fare reimbursed. 

Are we both SOL?!?

Never a dull moment though! Yesterday, more than 6 Policemen and inspectors from the town descended upon my work place. At least the pig sty was miraculously cleaned that very morning  They are serious here - and brought a video camera for the interrogation of the owner.

Then the owners are having trouble.

If it's shakedown, generally one or two guys go visit. The most I ever saw is 3, from a tax (I think) department to a newly opened business.

If it's 6 or more, they are investigating something pretty serious. That's how it is in the north.

I advise you to squeeze the owners for what you are owed as soon as possible, and as hard as possible. Pointing out the polices. Ignore him if he said it's normal practice "if there's more of them , wouldnt they have to divide the loot more. 6 is 4 too many" to counter his argument. In the worst case, he's going to jail and everything get sealed officially and you are screwed. You *might* get what you are owed from Treasury, but it takes months and lots of red tapes.

Meanwhile, better start on your jobhunting. I can smell a pink slip coming your way.

VanKhanh Ho wrote:

Hi

Actually, the employer have no right to fine employees in cash. They can only 1. Reprimand 2. Prolongation of the wage rise period for no more than 6 months; removal from office and 3. Dismissal.

Article 128, Labor Code 2012: Prohibited acts when handling violations of labor discipline
1. ...
2. Imposing fines or salary cut as disciplinary actions;
....

Article 16, Item 3 Decree 95/2013: The employer shall be liable to a fine of from 10,000,000 VND to 15,000,000 VND when committing one of the following acts:
a)...
b) Imposing fines or salary cut as disciplinary actions;
...

Thank you so much for this most valuable answer!

Today, I got my full October salary. The employer couldn't or wouldn't wire it overseas. But  they ignored their own contract regarding the "you will get paid after having worked 45 days" part. Am relieved and feel silly over fretting needlessly.

Dont breath easily just yet.

On a personal note, today I get my wage also~

VanKhanh Ho wrote:

Hi

Actually, the employer have no right to fine employees in cash. They can only 1. Reprimand 2. Prolongation of the wage rise period for no more than 6 months; removal from office and 3. Dismissal.

Article 128, Labor Code 2012: Prohibited acts when handling violations of labor discipline
1. ...
2. Imposing fines or salary cut as disciplinary actions;
....

Article 16, Item 3 Decree 95/2013: The employer shall be liable to a fine of from 10,000,000 VND to 15,000,000 VND when committing one of the following acts:
a)...
b) Imposing fines or salary cut as disciplinary actions;
...

Great info, much appreciated! Some research has revealed that this language school has perfected the art of ripping off foreigners. They usually leave without getting paid. It's common to give up x million Dong. For the owner, it's rinse and repeat

He is cocky and responded to my alluding to the above law like this:

[color=#0A2BF4You do know the labour laws of this country? The fine will be 10 Million Dong...

what the 100.000 VND? How does it come? I dont understand

Secondly, I'm not going to send any money because it wasn't from me, you automatically left here without reason. It's not my problem

Dont tell me about the laws here. ok. If I did do something wrong, I'll have responsibilities with that, but in fact I did not do anything wrong][/color]

Okay. The business keeps running ads for "full time" jobs. But there is not full time work at his center... Which is most certtainly not in "Ha Long Bay". But it works psychologically when applicants google the location and love what they see 

^^^^^^^^
If a business is no longer a going concern, it should file for bankruptcy, not keep going by not payign its staff. (Vietnamese teachers are suckered into working for free with phony promises of future paid employment. Lots out desperate people are out there...  )

Just letting is slide would mean the owner will keep doing that. ** My new employer keeps getting visits from The Police. While this crook flies under the radar? Just wondering how these things work in Vietnam.

@Nam - no contract => is that the trick allowing him not to pay foreigners? Just wondering.

Wishing you all a good start of the week!