Hi everyone,
My name's Adrian. This is my first post, but didn't know elsewhere to ask because our situation is pretty twisted and apparently without exit.
I come from Romania and have been living with my family (also from Romania) in Brazil for the past 9 months or so.
We had a child in Brazil so we are still on protocolo now, but things have changed, as we didn't accommodate to high prices and low services, no future in education for our kids, endless bureaucracy for anything, having no friends (Brazil is not a foreigner friendly country - except for the larger cities) and impossibility of getting decent jobs to support ourselves.
Because we had some fabricated dreams about Brazil we planned to live here forever, but that quickly changed with money being spent at an alarming rate and only for basic needs.
We bought a house and a car to stop spending on car and home rentals.
As we could not make a Brazilian account to transfer our money from Europe, we just chose an international transfer, both for car and house, it took ages to complete and multiple bureaucratic steps to follow, but we managed to wire the money into the vendor's account.
Starting this year we decided that we can't do anything in Brazil, no jobs, not a bright future awaiting this country, as people are being literally ripped off by this communist economy that doesn't let you breathe a day without explaining yourself. (just a metaphore, i'll explain it later)
We got our protocolo last year, until today still no PF visit, so still no RNE and no bank account.
We decided to sell our properties and move back (i know it sounds silly but it's the only option - we are not happy here), but although i put the house 4 months ago, only a few visits, and didn't manage to sell it. So now i will have to try selling our house at a lower price (even at loss..)
Why am i talking now in first person? It's because i brought my family back to Romania, but returned one month ago to sell the big stuff - house & car.
For the car i managed to find a buyer, but then the whole transferring back the money internationally happened.. The buyer tried at Caixa Economica to send me the money by international SWIFT transfer, but after 2 weeks they (the god of exchange in Sao Paulo) have rejected the transfer and the guy handling the buyer's account could not contact the Sao Paulo exchange office (that's were all the transfers over 5000 USD land for approval) because they only answer by email!! Que porcaria i said and we moved to Banco do Brasil (the buyer also had an account there).
The office clerk told us today that it's no problem to transfer the money via SWIFT, but the person transferring me the money will have to pay 16% imposto da renda of the amount to be sent, because it exceeds the 20000 R$ limit for non taxable purposes. The guy at Caixa never told us this... :-)
Well, so the office clerk at BB found the solution: split the amount in two so the buyer doesn't have to pay those 16%, only some smaller transfer fees, but the problem is that such a transfer can be made only once a month. On paper i've read "manutencao de residentes" (it's like kind of a donation to support someone outside Brazil) so i'm keeping my fingers crossed that it'll probably won't work, although the office clerk reassured us that it will.
So the car is not the big issue, the real issue here is the house.
First of all, too many offers in my area, my house cannot get bank financing for the buyer, so that narrows even more the possibility of finding a buyer. But that's my issue that i can control (by lowering the price), the issue that i can't control is the fact that the future buyer of my house will have to pay (according to the office clerk of BB) 16% imposto de renda for transferring money to outside of Brazil. I literally froze to my chair when i heard this.
That's a really heavy blow for me, because i invested a lot in the house. (it was at a decent price but needed some construction works done which costed me a whopping 50k R$) This money is already lost, because there's no way that i can sell the house fast and also recover my money.
But that's not all, now that a buyer needs to pay that crap 16% means of course i will have to cover this, because it's not the buyer's fault that i have no Brazilian bank account.
So I've been doing a lot of thinking today how to be able to receive this money without the buyer paying those 16% of the value to be transferred and came to following conclusions:
Scenario 1): buyer has an account outside Brazil: in this case if he transfers the money from his Brazilian account to let's say his Dutch or American or whatever nation account he won't have to pay 16% because it's a personal transfer between accounts. In this way the buyer can transfer from his foreign account to my European account. (issue solved, perhaps some taxes to pay but i am sure it won't be like in Brazil 16%)
Scenario 2): the office clerk from BB said that i could actually open a bank account right away i would only need my protocolo for permanencia, passport, CPF, and a declaracao de renda done at the Receita Federal, but i would need have the account active for at least 6 months in order to transfer myself money out of Brazil. The thing is that if i'd sell the house, i would receive the money into my Brazilian account and return back to Romania. When those 6 months are on, i would have left a procurement for a trustful friend to do the transfer in my name and only to my account back in Europe.
Scenario 3): any other ideas?
All these scenarios seem to be doable, but (with caps lock) my protocolo will soon be canceled when the PF figure out that i am living here alone (in 2 months the protocolo for the rest of the family will expire-and so will mine-because the little brasileira is now in Romania)
And also let's say i have managed to open a bank account BB/HBSC/Citi/whatever and manage to sell the house and receive the money...what happens when i have money in my account, my protocolo expires and i left Brazil? I can get a bogus residency for comprovante de residencia, but if the bank does some background check on my protocolo and sees that i am just a tourist now, will they cancel my account and seize the money? (because tourists are not allowed to have a Brazilian bank account)
I am sure some of you will be tired reading all this nonsense here and will definitely scold me up for being so reckless and diving in headfirst, but i really do need some advice or tested experiences in dealing with this sorts of money problems. It's not fair that you can spend money or invest in Brazil but when you want to take your money back it's a living nightmare.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
How to sell your house in Brazil if you're on a protocolo -Bank issues
Hello expatro,
I must say that your description of Brazilians as being "foreigner unfriendly" is exactly the opposite from the experience of every expat that I deal with here and my own. Are you sure that you're not talking strictly about the government and it's suffocating bureaucracy rather than the Brazilian people themselves? I've never encountered anyone who considers Brazilians as anything less than warm, friendly, receptive people, NEVER. If you're actually talking about the people I would truly be surprised and suggest that you look within yourself for the reason this has happened to you and nobody else. You'll find the answer in something you've done or failed to do in order to make friends in Brazil and of that I 'm absolutely certain. That said let's move on to dealing with your problems.
1. First of all you should check with a lawyer who specializes in immigrations issues, since as I understand the law your application for "permanência definitiva com base em filho (prole) brasileiro" should not be effected in any way by the fact that your daughter is back in Romania (at least it shouldn't change things as long as YOU are here in Brazil and don't leave for periods longer than 90 days until you actually get your permanency - this is established by entry/exit stamps in your passport). You are supporting her financially and that is all the law requires. As I see it the Ministry of Justice has no legal grounds on which to cancel your application since the grounds on which the application was based still exist. That in itself meets all the legal requirements. The law is quite clear on this issue, your daughter will always be considered Brazilian by birth, you are financially supporting a Brazilian child and there is absolutely no wording in the law that says that child must be in Brazil, just that you're supporting the child. I'm sure that a good lawyer will confirm this fact. So that as I see it should be the first thing you want to resolve since obtaining your permanency will help you resolve all the other problems. The 90 days in brackets above is important that it will obviously not help your wife's case at all since she is outside the country and her permanency will be terminated after 90 days. Of course all of the foregoing information depends on the fact that the Federal Police have already made their home visit, because they have to see with their own eyes that the child actually exists and is either in your care or being supported by you. If that visit hasn't taken place then you're cooked.
2. Selling your home, which will be an extremely complicated issue for numerous reasons will not be so easy. First of all is the reason that the home can't be financed by the Caixa Econômica Federal that it does not have a document called "habite-se" or no registered deed? That is something you simply can't get around. In this case you can only hope to find a buyer who has sufficient cash to purchase the home with a single payment. This is difficult since you probably won't find a Brazilian buyer unless it's somebody with lots of money who will be looking to get the house as cheaply as possible and profit off of your unfortunate situation. Maybe selling to another expat would be a solution here.
The other possibility if YOU can afford to do so would be to carry the financing of the house yourself. This would involve a Private Contract of Purchase and Sale (Contrato Particular de Compra e Venda) that would need to be registered in the Cartório setting out all the legal details of both the sale of the house, payment form and frequency, transfer, etc. It would also involve a series of promissory notes also registered in the Cartório that the buyer must "rescue" by paying them. These documents once registered are held by you and released to the buyer one-by-one as each is paid. If the buyer fails to pay then obviously would not have the "note" which proves payment had been made the sale contract is broken and you could reclaim ownership of the home. So it is protected, but still a lot more complicated than an outright single payment agreement. Still doable and this option would clearly mean the smaller payments would avoid the 16% tax. If you continue with your permanency application and thus are able to open an account with HSBC or Citibank so much the better since you then only need to open an account with the same bank back in Romania, the house payments get made by way of bank deposits to the Brazilian account and you let the bank do an internal transfer between your two accounts. Once you are a permanent resident and have all your documents in order you only need to return to Brazil once every two years to retain that permanency. Even if only for a day or two, those entry and exit stamps in the passport are pure GOLD.
Regarding the other options suggested. They would involve giving a Power of Attorney (Procuração Publico) to someone who you'd have to be able to trust 100% since the POA would essentially mean in legal terms that the house was their property and they had absolute control over the sale. That could end up backfiring on you and I have seen that happen. In fact I almost lost a property myself because of just that very same trap. I luckily got out through some very "borderline illegal" moves to cancel the procuração. I would really recommend that you forget about any option that involves a procuração unless you have a family member you trust with your very life.
Hope this has given you some ideas and will possibly help you in your difficult situation. If you have any further doubts just ask if I can't help you I'm sure somebody here will try to.
Cheers,
William James Woodward, EB Experts Team
Mt ñame is RAF i hace a realdtate offiice in sao paulo. I hope de can hell you. Cali for me. To de talk face to face. Mt Mobile. 11 971372691
Thanks William for the really concise and helpful answer. (actually i chose EB because i've been searching many things in Brazil and have been always stumbling on your answers which do clearly shed some light)
1) Visa status: So what you're saying, even if the child is not here and i can prove i am sending funds to support her (i actually do and have internet banking receipts to show that) i can actually continue the residency process until i get the visit and the decision is published in the diario?
2) Bank: Some people actually recommended me HBSC or Citibank for being very foreigner friendly and some say that i can even open on a protocolo my bank account (can you confirm if anyone has succeeded), but what happens if my permanency status does not continue and i return back to a simple tourist status, what then, can they close my bank account? (and of course lose any money i would have)
And some Bonus:
About Brazilians being foreigner unfriendly: i actually had some bad experiences regarding some people i thought friends. We bought all the furniture for the house and of course we've sold a majority of that too, at a very discounted price. (more than half of the original price) and that's when our so called "friends" showed their true faces by giving me links with products at a lower price, then requesting i'd lower the price even more. Another "friend" told me that we always asked for help (we only asked if she knows a cleaning lady and someone to babysit) but do not give anything back. (actually she was pissed off because we did not register our son at her weird kindergarden because it did not convince us in many aspects) And that a hand washes another in Brazil and that she is really happy we are going back home because that's were we belong best. :-) I can say i was truly shocked.
But i've sensed that people in our rural area in Florianopolis are very fake, being friendly only on the surface, and most important being friends only when there are no problems. In Romania we have a saying a true friend is someone who helps you without any interest at all, just helps you. And don't think we we only asking things from our Brazilian friends (if information is called asking for a thing) but we gave away huge bags of baby clothing and many other things we couldn't take with us. (baby bed & tub, stroller, etc).
But we also made a couple of good friends, two professors and an old stylish lady who has seen the entire world when she was young, so i think that's an alarming thing, because many people here have no real education and you don't have any common interests with people crazy about sports and funk carioca.
You come from Canada right? Our friends, the university teachers dream to live in Canada, because they lived there a period and enjoyed it very much, plus they are thinking about the future in education for their toddler. So they actually hate Brazil because the people without education decide who's in charge of the country. (you know the PT and bolsa familia scheme)
Desde ja muito obrigado,
A
Hi again Adrian,
1. EXACTLY, as far as I can see and understand reading the legislation once you've entered into the VIPER Permanent Visa process and the Federal Police have actually made the home visit to confirm the child actually exists and is in your care or you're supporting the child they send off the paperwork to the Ministry of Justice then it's just a matter of time, waiting for the visa to be issued. There is absolutely NOTHING in the law that requires the child (now a Brazilian citizen) to be in Brazil. Since the grounds upon which you based your application still exists (as it will until your daughter reaches the age of 18) I see no legal way that they can refuse permanency short of being out of the country for more than 90 days during processing, which would have the legal effect of you abandoning your application. Once you have the visa you can leave Brazil for up to 2 years at a time and still remain a Permanent Resident.
2. The bank, your money will always be yours. The bank can't simply close your account and retain the money under any circumstances other than the Courts issuing an Order that freezes the account and all other assets. This is done only in cases of drug trafficking, money laundering or to prevent individuals charged with very serious crimes from fleeing the country, which is certainly not your case. So, even if your application was denied, which it shouldn't be or if you abandoned the application by leaving the country the bank would have to return your money. In fact, I think once established only YOU can close the account except if the bank closes it for inactivity over a period of several years (specified by law). Even then the money must be held in trust to be released to the account holder or heirs should they come forward.
Brazilian friends...... like making friends anywhere in the world you have to choose them wisely. I will admit that there are many Brazilians who will be glad to know you and appear to be good friends as long as there is something in it for them (usually some financial return). If you're buying the drinks they all want to know you! If you're offering help to them when they're in need, food baskets, etc., they love you. I think that kind exists anywhere in the world really. That said, while in some states and cities here in Brazil it might be a bit tougher or take a bit longer to make REAL friends, if you do make a Brazilian friend they're your friends for life and will stick by you through thick and thin. The rest are just acquaintances as far as I'm concerned.
Many Brazilians want everything for nothing, it's part of the culture unfortunately. They can sense your troubles and weaknesses like they've got some kind of radar. Many will try and take full advantage of situations in order to gain through your pain! I don't know if it's a basic character flaw or if it is just part of the culture that they see all of us foreigners as being filthy rich so if they can get the upper hand, take advantage of us in order to make a few bucks, euros or reais they'll do it since they see themselves as much poorer than us which somehow makes that alright to them. This is evidenced by the fact that wherever you go in Brazil there are 3 prices for everything, one for local residents (the lowest), one for Brazilian tourists (slightly higher) and yet another for foreigners (tourists or long-term residents) which is the highest of the three and essentially whatever they can charge.
Please though, do not judge all Brazilians by the few bad apples you may have met. I can assure you they are not in the majority and they are not typical of all Brazilians.
Keep me posted, via private message if you wish, as to your progress. Not only because I'm very concerned about your situation, but also because it will greatly help any other members who may find themselves in similar situation. Any further information required, just ask.
Oh and yes, thanks so much for the elogies. I'm glad you chose Expat-blog because you gave such value to my advice and counsel to others. It's very gratifying to know.
Cheers,
William James Woodward, EB Experts Team
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