Careless about Environment and The Nature are sad things in Indonesia

I strongly disagree. Why? Where is all the rubbish gone, after your so called "Clean UP". Behind the holy temple, behind the house... But it does not go away and it slowly but certainly is eating up Bali's unique environment.

PURIFICATION? Yes, indeed. And where is all the rubbish gone? Are you walking sometimes during rainy season on Kuta Beach? Not just after ceremonies...

Michael, please allow me to offer a few points which might help you and others to understand Bali's beaches, especially in the south during the rainy season, as well as the ceremonial use of Bali's beaches.

The weather during the rainy season is noted as being particularly stormy.  This is true not only in Bali itself, but offshore as well.  Each day there is quite a lot of garbage and junk which washes up on Bali's beaches, and this is particularly true of the southern beaches of Bali where they have full exposure to the Indian Ocean.  In recent years there has been great improvement in the cleanliness of Bali's beaches, even during the rainy season.  The Balinese fully understand the need to keep our beaches as clean as possible given the appeal of our beaches to tourists.  Are things perfect?  No, not by a long shot, but they are much better than say as few as 10 years ago.  You can Google all day long and overall find that the opinions of our beaches as expressed by the majority of long time expats, as well as veteran tourists who come to Bali frequently, has greatly improved in recent years.  If you still think otherwise then explain the year to year explosion in tourist arrivals to Bali (which I am not personally all that happy about but is true nonetheless).   

As I mentioned earlier in this string, recyclable material is earmarked for re-cycling, either here in Gianyar, or in other locations off island.  Biodegradable material is often composted or simply burned.   

As for ceremonies, there are few beaches on Bali which are regularly used for purification or other ceremonies.  The vast majority of beaches on Bali are not used in ceremonies…so, there are always plenty of other beaches to go to if one wants to avoid a beach used for ceremonies.  One only needs to ask the locals. 

Since you are a diving enthusiast, you might seek out the perspective of one of Bali's most senior dive masters, John Huxley of Eco Dive in Amed.  I think his 20 or so years of 24/7 living here and diving Bali's waters might help to at least temper your opinion.  You might also seek out the opinion of a fellow Austrian, Hans Hayden (from Vienna) who in the course of his 11+ years of 24/7 living on Bali has also witnessed the improvements and changes.  Hans runs Cafe Lotus on the grounds of the Royal Palace in Ubud.   

You write, “they call it now LOST PARADISE.”

That might be what you call it, but the Balinese would surely disagree with you, and for me, it is what they think that's most important…no offence, but I have my priorities well sorted out.   

Michael, if that is indeed your opinion, then I respectfully remind you that the planes at Ngurah Rai not only bring folks in, but they take folks out. 

Expats ebb and flow here like the tide, and the simple truth is, Bali isn't for everyone…thank the Gods.

But the real lesson here for expats is to try to be part of the solution, as opposed to being part of the problem or sitting on the side lines and merely complaining.   

Well Mike, nobody else on this forum has ever declared me a show off, but plenty have thanked me both publicly and privately for the excellent advice and insight I've provided. 

You take nice photos...stick to what you do best.

I have been here for  a few years and seen posters come and go. Some helpful some not. Those who have been here a while I believe accept what other people say and take on board the comments and advice given. When that clashes with someone elses knowledge or experience it has been accepted and added to the wealth of insight long term expats who actually live in the country provide who in turn then can make and provide more useful and up to date information available to new members.
Over the last 7 seven years I have visited bali 3 or 4 times a year and much to Ubudians horror spent nearly all of it in Kuta unwinding by the sea in what is the least balinese part if the island. My contributions therefore are accepted by all because my experience is limited to the nonsense that is Kuta and I have no idea what really goes on in Bali but should I need to then someone who has lived breathed Indonesia and Bali for over 15 years would be who I would turn to.
However the experiences I submit help others both old and new to the forum because they show a different perspective.
But all of a sudden these reflections of life have been challenged by those who dismiss other posters thoughts and insights for no real reason I can see, which is wrong, totally wrong.

I am not taking sides but I lean towards the fact that newer contributors to the  forum have been of late condescending, patronising and have had the audacity to personally challenge members for no reason other than, in my opinion, to rile and aggravate others including me and I find that very distasteful especially as this has been up to now the friendliest forum I have posted on.

Everyones contributions are valuable and can be informative but not when they are designed to create unnecessary ill feelings and negativity. If there is nothing you can add which supports the topic and other members view points or is able to help shed more light on a topic then feel free not to post anything.

Hello Luke,

I lived in Sanur for a couple of years and my kids went to the Bali International School. During that time I have explored much of Bali and it is very beautiful away from Kuta. However, placing orders for handicrafts in places such as Pujung and Sebatu and Peliatan and bamboo furniture in Bono and garments in factories all over Bali and furniture in other places means that I have been doing business in Bali since about 1989. In fact there are so many other villages in the gianyar region that have specilities in the type of woodcarvings that they make. The same goes for bone carvings which you can buy in Tampaksiring. I used to work offshore Jakarta but before that in Balikpapan and before that offshore Madura for oil and gas exploration with Kodeco. For a mere US$10 I would spend my two weeks off in Bali instead of flying back to Singapore where I was based. Aside from that, I have always been a surfer and also been to Bali so many times with other surfers that I cannot even remember. And we rode our bikes along the beach in Kuta and also up to Kintamani and Singaraja and Lovina as most people do. I even paddled a dugout canoe with another geologist friend from penelokan to Trunyan and back with a stop off at the hot springs at the foot of the mountain. This was before they had motorized boats bringing tourists to Trunyan. You can see the canoe in the photo.

Now Luke, I already know Bali very well but if you really do not know anything about Bali other than Kuta then I too would recommend you contact Ubudian. He has kindly offered to show me around Gianyar a couple of times, however these days my stays are short and available time limited. But I think you should certainly meet up with him, get away from Kuta for a change and go up country and explore the real Bali. Honestly, if you spend all your time on the beach and shopping at Kuta Square then as Ubudian says, you are spending your time in Disneyland and not really in Bali. Hope you guys get to meet up and Ubudian go easy on Luke 

A dirty beach in Makassar

The typical graffiti that we see all over Bandung city.

Hello everyone > just to inform that some off topic posts have been removed from this discussion. Thank you.

Christine wrote:

Hello everyone > just to inform that some off topic posts have been removed from this discussion. Thank you.

Hello Christine,
A 'Thank you' goes to you and Armand for sanitizing this thread.
Garbage must go where garbage belongs to: the trash bin.

This thread is still quite long, so perhaps it would benefit from a useful summary.

As for Bali there is not doubt that there has been a great deal of improvement since I moved here in 1998.  I will highlight some of those:

-Total eradication of bomb fishing.   

Bomb fishing was destroying many of the vital coral reefs around Bali and Bali was headed for ecological disaster unless something was done quickly.  It was.  An excellent public awareness program was launched to educate the fisherman on the effects of bomb fishing which would amount to their suicide, as the fish would all be gone if this continued.  Heavy fines and jail time added an additional incentive for them to stop this practice.  Bomb fishing today is a thing of the past. 

-Recycling plant built in Gianyar

Thanks to the generosity of the Swiss government, the tireless efforts of Mr. David Kuper (a highly regarded Ubud based Swiss expat), and the Ubud Rotary organization, Bali's first recycling plant was established in 2008 and remains operational under the Yayasan Gelombang Udara Segar, aka, Yayasan GUS.  This is just the beginning of other waste management projects underway in most all the Regencies of Bali. 

-Village collection of recyclable material.

Once again spearheaded by a sustained and comprehensive public awareness program, a great many villages throughout Bali now have collection programs in place where collection of recycled material is ongoing and regular.  Newspapers, plastic bottles and tin cans (beverage or food) are now collected and sent to Gianyar or off island for processing.   

-Education

Virtually every public school in Bali now includes courses on environmental issues and proper disposal of waste products.  While private schools have been pushing this issue for some time (as with The Green School), this is now a part of all educational systems in Bali.

There is still much more to do in Bali, and I'm betting elsewhere in Indonesia as well, but at least we are on the right tract and anyone who has been here for the past 16 years will quickly recognize the progress that has already been made.

And as far as Indonesia overall all…Indonesia is NOT a third world country.

It would be just fair to know which are the "some"...

For starters Doc, posts that accused someone of not caring about their children's education.  Does that “ring a bell” for you?   

It's a fourth ones 

For a Dr, you do seem fairly clueless

A retired economics teacher Luke.   

Wow, I get slowly scared of the Ubud Expert. Did NASA help you?

That explains it then.......

The government agency I used to work for only has three letters Doc. 

I really hope that Bail and the rest of Indonesia cleans up well. I mean not just the litter but also the so many sleazy bars like the Bar Fly in Legian and others which give Bali a bad name.

People who know Bali know well enough that Bali's fine reputation is unaffected by Kuta or Legian. 

Furthermore, Bali doesn't have a bad name, which is why it consistently shows up as a top world class tourist destination.

How did you come to the conclusion that Bali has a bad name?

I just googled it.

Hah!  Have a whole lot of fun with all that material written by Mark Andrew Austin who I assisted the authorities in getting permanently deported from Indonesia and on the Interpol Watch List. 

Be sure to read what Mark has to say about our esteemed governor I Made Mangku Pastika as well!

And for sure, don't miss this blog:

mad-hatter-of-bali.blogspot.com/‎

Ubudian wrote:

Hah!  Have a whole lot of fun with all that material written by Mark Andrew Austin who I assisted the authorities in getting permanently deported from Indonesia and on the Interpol Watch List. 

Be sure to read what Mark has to say about our esteemed governor I Made Mangku Pastika as well!

And for sure, don't miss this blog:

mad-hatter-of-bali.blogspot.com/‎

I'm not interested in your personal problems. Whether it's true what he accuses you of is neither here nor there. I only want to talk about cleaning up the environment in Indonesia. Let's keep to the topic shall we?

"Let's keep to the topic shall we?"

EXCUSE ME....Mike, George, or whatever your name is!

YOU changed the topic on the post now shown as "Last edited by MikeWallace77 (Today 15:59:55)"   And that post is now entirely different than what was first there. 

You just like playing games, and pulling the old "who, me?" routine.

edited to add additional content

Hi everybody,

It would be nice if we can all speak calmly here and without animosity.  It would be very much appreciated as well if we can also make this thread a more constructive one, with useful answers only. 
Can we get back to the topic please?

Thank you 

Priscilla

Let's get back to original topic.

sorry, but I do not recall that I asked you. Or did I miss something? Are you now one of the editors?

NOISE POLLUTION

When I arrived in St. Lucia in 1991, I was appalled by the loud music in public buses.
Public busses are private here.  14-seater, some with and some without A/C.  There was and is no such thing as Government subsidized public transport.

The ‘music' used to be so loud that the skin on the abdomen used to vibrate from the bass speakers dooom, dooom.  Passengers had to shout very, very loudly for the driver to stop.  At that time, the driver stopped wherever the passenger needed.  These days there are some designated bus stops (some with vandalized bus stop shelters) but in most places, the passenger tells the driver where to stop.

Children were getting off the bus in a dizzy state.

I do not know for how long before I arrived here such craziness as extra loud music went on.  But in 1993 the public became furious and the media turned full with articles, TV talks and bus owners have been called to order to cease excessive noise.

In a few months things got under control and passengers were able to enjoy the ride and to talk to the person on the next seat without needing to shout in his ears.

This goes to show that the general public can get sensitized and take steps to eliminate public nuisances.

I believe a day will come in Indonesia (and anywhere else) when people will take action to curb excesses like excessive garbage, noise pollution, public safety, etc.

In a flourishing society something bad must happen first and then the citizens react.
In a decaying society, citizens do not care to fight or lose interest in redressing disturbing situations and then bad things continue in a worse and worse way.

I believe we expats have a role to take stance on issues which affect not only us directly but also the public in the midst of which we live.
Nobody gives us that role, we must take it upon ourselves and, after a mix of negative and positive feedback, we shall be thanked one day. 

Priscilla wrote:

Hi everybody,

It would be nice if we can all speak calmly here and without animosity.  It would be very much appreciated as well if we can also make this thread a more constructive one, with useful answers only. 
Can we get back to the topic please?

Thank you 

Priscilla

Hello Priscilla,

The first thing to build something is to clean the place and take the trash out.  There is a lot of white trash here.
You need not wait until a lot of garbage builds up for you to take it out ... 

John C. wrote:

Priscilla wrote:

Hi everybody,

It would be nice if we can all speak calmly here and without animosity.  It would be very much appreciated as well if we can also make this thread a more constructive one, with useful answers only. 
Can we get back to the topic please?

Thank you 

Priscilla

Hello Priscilla,

The first thing to build something is to clean the place and take the trash out.  There is a lot of white trash here.
You need not wait until a lot of garbage builds up for you to take it out ... 

Couldn't agree with you more...!

Enny Frans wrote:

Hello Mr. John C. as i said before, it is lack of the education. I am an Indonesian, and i know how people from my country are. The problem are, most of them don't have better information and not well educated like people from other country. many of them don't know what is the effect of throwing rubbish everywhere. and i think the main problem is the government doesn't provide a strict rule, so whoever throw rubbish don't even care. I saw in the news this morning, there were some people organized to collect the rubbish around one of the river in Belgium. because apparently, there were some people throw the rubbish also, like can, and some other kind of trash. so people with bad behavior toward environment are actually exist in every countries, the difference is the behavior of people in this country formed by strict rule since they were born, so the amount of them are rare here, while in Indonesia, this behavior are contagiously spread because there is no rule to manage that.

Hello Enny,

This thread went on for a while without you.
What is your opinion now, at the present? 

MikeWallace77 wrote:

John C. wrote:

Priscilla wrote:

Hi everybody,

It would be nice if we can all speak calmly here and without animosity.  It would be very much appreciated as well if we can also make this thread a more constructive one, with useful answers only. 
Can we get back to the topic please?

Thank you 

Priscilla

Hello Priscilla,

The first thing to build something is to clean the place and take the trash out.  There is a lot of white trash here.
You need not wait until a lot of garbage builds up for you to take it out ... 

Couldn't agree with you more...!

Thank you Sir! 

“There is a lot of white trash here.”

John, Mike, selamat (congratulations) to you both for being honest.  Indeed there is a lot of “white trash” to be found among the expatriate community.  You can spot them fairly easily as they are often prone to hanging out their underwear in public to dry. 

Mike wrote earlier on this thread (March 24):

“I think Bail is generally pretty clean because the locals tidy up each day.”

In reality, the Balinese “tidy up” twice a day.  You see, part of the daily cleansing ritual that goes on in most every Balinese compound happens twice…early in the morning, and late in the afternoon.  Like clock work you can hear the sounds of the brooms being swept across the compound grounds, and, so regular is this ritual, that you could set your watch by that sound. 

Anyone who has lived in a Balinese compound (as I have for over 15 years) would understand that, as they would have seen it 7 days a week, the only exception being Nyepi.

This “cleaning ritual” includes personal hygiene.  The Balinese mandi (bathe) at least twice a day…early in the morning and again in the early evening.  I say at least twice a day, because if their day will include going to temple or being involved with any ceremony (which is very frequent) they will bathe an additional third time.

Before the availability of city water and the popularity of wells, the Balinese would normally conduct this bathing in the endless streams and rivers that bisect Bali.  In some areas, bathing in this manner still goes on, and in fact, even with water being amply available in the majority of Balinese compounds, many Balinese today still prefer bathing in their local river or stream because they feel entirely cleansed. 

I am personally unaware of any western culture where the norm is taking two or three baths a day.

John, it is painfully clear that you either have very limited, or absolutely NO exposure to Indonesia, so a kind suggestion tempts me…comment on what you know, and not what you THINK you know.

Ubudian wrote:

“There is a lot of white trash here.”

John, Mike, selamat (congratulations) to you both for being honest.  Indeed there is a lot of “white trash” to be found among the expatriate community.  You can spot them fairly easily as they are often prone to hanging out their underwear in public to dry. 

Mike wrote earlier on this thread (March 24):

“I think Bail is generally pretty clean because the locals tidy up each day.”

In reality, the Balinese “tidy up” twice a day.  You see, part of the daily cleansing ritual that goes on in most every Balinese compound happens twice…early in the morning, and late in the afternoon.  Like clock work you can hear the sounds of the brooms being swept across the compound grounds, and, so regular is this ritual, that you could set your watch by that sound. 

Anyone who has lived in a Balinese compound (as I have for over 15 years) would understand that, as they would have seen it 7 days a week, the only exception being Nyepi.

This “cleaning ritual” includes personal hygiene.  The Balinese mandi (bathe) at least twice a day…early in the morning and again in the early evening.  I say at least twice a day, because if their day will include going to temple or being involved with any ceremony (which is very frequent) they will bathe an additional third time.

Before the availability of city water and the popularity of wells, the Balinese would normally conduct this bathing in the endless streams and rivers that bisect Bali.  In some areas, bathing in this manner still goes on, and in fact, even with water being amply available in the majority of Balinese compounds, many Balinese today still prefer bathing in their local river or stream because they feel entirely cleansed. 

I am personally unaware of any western culture where the norm is taking two or three baths a day.

John, it is painfully clear that you either have very limited, or absolutely NO exposure to Indonesia, so a kind suggestion tempts me…comment on what you know, and not what you THINK you know.

In England we bathe (mandi) twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. Can't speak for all Englishmen though. How about in the USA? 

In fact, that goes to general things.

As other has mentioned, the comments are suddenly pop out like pop song or pop corn. So please get back to topic and give a good suggestion.

Asides, we would recall for the author of this thread to give some comments and moderation. 

"In England we bathe (mandi) twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. Can't speak for all Englishmen though."

"Can't speak for all Englishmen though"

Yes of course, the logical conclusion being that it's the immigrants who bathe twice a day and who knows when it comes to the Englishmen.  That sounds reasonable given all my time spent in the Cotswolds.   

"How about in the USA?"

I don't know.  I haven't been there in 16 years.

How about in KL?

Edited to revise content.

Ubudian wrote:

"In England we bathe (mandi) twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening. Can't speak for all Englishmen though."

"Can't speak for all Englishmen though"

Yes of course, the logical conclusion being that it's the immigrants who bathe twice a day and who knows when it comes to the Englishmen.  That sounds reasonable given all my time spent in the Cotswolds.   

"How about in the USA?"

I don't know.  I haven't been there in 16 years.

How about in KL?

Edited to revise content.

Not sure as I haven't watched Malaysians bathe, but I believe probably twice a day, same as most other places. But as a British person I mandi twice a day and my Indonesian wife and our kids mandi twice a day too.