The american dream ...

I'm on the same situation. After being abroad in some countries, maybe my next destination could be the USA.

What is the opinion of european expat's living there??

Well, if you're a smoker, it must be a freakin nightmare... No, just kidding - but why not make one more step down south. Remember Joe? The guy who everybody kept asking "where you gonna go with that gun in your hand" (cf. Jimi Hendrix)? And who finally said he'd be "goin way down south to Mexico way, where I can be free". Of course, nowadays you don't necessarily have to shoot your old lady to get there...

I'm not convinced anymore by the American dream in the US.
It's so difficult to get a visa those times. I prefer the American dream in Canada. ;-)

Hello Julien and good luck if you're moving to the U.S. !
I am still sort of convinced by the American dream, just because French society is so stratified and highly hierarchized that you feel like you have more chances (especially as a young person) to find work, to be recognized for your skills etc.. in the U.S.
Every French expat I know in NY has easily found a job (and some very very well paid). There is still a sense that things can move quickly and for the best, a sense of hope and less fera than in France (in my opinion). The thing that really struck me (and one of the main reasons I love the U.S) is the dynamics, the energy of the people (I guess it's the "entrepreneur" attitude).

I recently read an interesting book by Jeremy Rifkin called the European Dream.  He's very much an EU cheerleader/apologist.  I'll give you some excerpts from the inside cover:

"The EU's GDP now eclipses that of the US, making it the largest economy in the world.  The EU is already the world's leading exporter and largest internal trading market.  Moreover, much of Europe enjoys a longer life span and greater literacy, and has less poverty and crime, less blight and sprawl, longer vacations, and shorter commmutes to work than we do in the United States.  When one considers what makes a people great and what constitutes a better way of life, Europe now surpasses America.
"...While the American Dream emphasizes unrestrained economic growth, personal wealth, and the pursuit of individual self-interest, the European Dream focuses more on sustainable development, quality of life, and the nurturing of community."

So to answer your question correctly it depends on what you expect from the American Dream.  If you want to drive a big car and live in a big mansion with a big gate to keep out people you don't like at the cost of other important things in life that don't have direct monetary value then you will have more opportunity to achieve this in America than elsewhere in the world.  You might pay the price with less health, more debt, more crime, less vacation, and a less clear conscience.  There is a reason why there are no U.S. cities under the top 25 quality of life cities in the world despite the glowing U.S. image projected by its popular culture.

The problem with the American Dream is that most people want it without working for it.  Many Americans are gambling and going into debt at alarming rates, looking for a reward before putting in the effort.  A large reason for this is that the youngest generations have grown up in relative prosperity compared to prior (usually hungry, immigrant) generations.  Moving here from a third world country will improve your life dramatically.  Moving here from a first world country will not.  There may be better chances for upward mobility and entrepreneurship here, but most people don't take advantage of it.  In the end it's a personal matter, but assuming you're privileged to live in a first world country to start with, the right attitude and work ethic in life will be much more important to achieving your goals than the location you live. 

On the other hand, if you have certain notions or dreams about America that you'd like to fulfill then don't let my comments stop you.  I'll admit that I'm a little biased as I'm planning to move the other way sometime soon, but what I've written is a large reason why.

Dustin,
Rifkin... rifkin... Oh yeah, in this book he was stating that the Euro constitution will be the next great success of Europe...
Well...

I moved to the US after a two months internships last summer. My opinion is a mix of things that have already been said here. There is definitly a dream to catch here in the US. But it is not the dream of everyone, and you definitly have to work for it. I was looking for a country where you are rewarded for your skills, work, not the reputation of your school, etc. I found all that, and I also agree that possibilities of career are far more open in US companies.
If you are dreaming about US, prepare to work for it, but it is worth it.

Jean-Philippe wrote:

Rifkin... he was stating that the Euro constitution will be the next great success

Yes.  There's much more to it, but he does consider the constitution (or whatever legislation will replace it if it fails) an important piece of the European puzzle.  I can see why it's unpopular in the original member states, but in order for Europe to be globally competetive in the long run I think it's important.  For Europe to compete with the US, India, and China it will need all the leverage it can get, and individual members won't have this.

The bottom line is that America is huge, less regulated than Europe, and to this day attitudes maintain a strong sense of individualism and entrepreneurship thanks to its roots.  The religious motivations for settlers shine through strongly to this day as well.  I doubt there's a European country where out of your 50 cable channels 3-4 exclusively show religious programs, up to 10 on Sundays.  On the plus side there is also a huge domestic market and lots of capital for most types of business.  At the moment America still leads in education and technology, and consequently innovation.

I know European expats who have come to America that were successful and happy, and I know European expats who have come to America that were unsuccessful and miserable. If you have a strong desire and the opportunity to live here it can be wonderful. 

If like many people you've grown a dislike for American attitudes over the last five or six years you may not enjoy it here.  The strong sense of patriotism here is a double edged sword.  Many Americans I've met strongly believe they're the best simply because they're American - they've been told so since they were little.  On the one hand this sort of attitude breeds success.  On the other hand it often breeds arrogance, which is a large reason there is a global backlash against American policies.

jcerunner wrote:

I'm on the same situation. After being abroad in some countries, maybe my next destination could be the USA.

What is the opinion of european expat's living there??

I'm from the US. I can only say that Europeans are generally regarded as exotic and fun and someone you really want to meet. As far as I know, Europeans are not considered a "threat" to Americans trying to find jobs, they aren't known for bothering anyone, actually. In fact, most people will be genuinely interested in where you come from, what you are doing in the US and keep you talking for hours.

It will add to your charm and character and you will never feel more European in your entire life.

As far as the American dream goes.... If you consider working 80 hour weeks and not having a life out of your career and constantly striving to "win" and work harder and better than anyone else to achieve your goals a "dream"..... then yes. The American dream is alive and there are a lot of people out there that are living it.

I, on the other hand, got out of America for exactly that reason. I want life to go slower and actually LIVE outside of an office for once.... I think people in the US put too much emphasis on succeeding in their careers while they really should be striving to succeed in other areas of their lives.

I'm an American living in Mexico, and I concur heartily with Special K. Its all about money and work in the United States these days. We jokingly call Mexico "the land of the free" because everyday life feels so much freer down here. The police don't write tickets for going five miles over the speed limit. And you joke, but really, if you are a smoker, living in California *has* become a nightmare (i'm not a smoker, but i'm married to one and i'm the mother of another).

And Mexico these days, at least in the Yucatan, is the land of opportunity too. There are problems, of course, but they are different.

Basically, I think we expats are the living proof that the grass really IS greener on the other side of the hill. Doesn't matter which side of the hill you live on... the other side feels greener when you get there. Maybe we're just the kind of people that like change.

Hi there,

We're a couple of french just moved in New Orleans, Louisiana and if it can be of any help here is our blog :
http://louisiana-dream.over-blog.com/

I think you should come... I will sell you my house

Seriously.  It is in my opinion that you should experience as much in life as you can & one of the best ways to do that is in another country.

When I was little, through my mid 20s I was Rah Rah Patriotic American... I wanted to be in the Military... for life.  I wanted to shoot the enemy & be the person so many patriotic songs sing about.  A near fatal accident while in college ended that as I can no longer run w/out suffering severe pain.  Everything I ever did was to prepare for that life... then it wasn't going to happen.  I spent a lot of timing just living & the more I lived & the more I discovered about "real" life the more I realized that the US is a great sham.  The idea of America is great... the majority of Americans are great... but I feel that my country is but a thread of its former glorious reputation & our government is milking our past success & status far beyond its worth.  I will stop my rant there as I don't want to hijack the basic question of the thread & I could probably right a novel on the subject.

I am not a dismal failure, bitter about poor decisions either.  I have had jobs that pay extrememly well & I have owned or currently own succesful businesses.  I have a beautiful daughter & I love living.  So don't think that I am someone who had a run of bad luck & blames "society".

Anywhere in the world will have pro's & con's... heaven exists only in heaven & hell in hell.  You have to experience the world for yourself & make deceisions based on how those experiences relate to your personal belief system.  My personal belief system currently favors the notion that my family & I will be much happier & much more succesful in a country other than the USA.  Which is why I don't only wish to live abroad but to become a citizen of a different country.  I recently visited Niagara Falls, Canada.  Niagara on the Lake is a community I could easily call home... opening a business at the Falls & enjoy the rest of my life there.  My girlfriend doesn't want to live in Canada in the winter though... so we are looking at the Caribbean.

To answer the specific question... yes.  It is here & it can still be had.  But with all that I feel is wrong with our country it would be easier had else where (as previously stated).

What ever you decide... keep an open mind & good luck.

Hi Julien,

I very much believe that the US is a land of opportunity. You need to be willing to work very hard and have an open mind. If you are thinking of only one type of work, for example, but you cannot find a job doing that in the US, you will need to accept different work. For example, if you are an architect but you don't have the proper US credentials when you get here, you might need to work at McDonalds or Walmart until you get your credentials. But, let me tell you that my father came to the US from Italy when he was 17 and worked very hard as a mechanic. He opened his own business when he was 22 and he retired when he was 50. He raised 4 children and provided a good life for them. Plus his wife didn't need to work. What I am saying is that it IS possible to make the life that you want. In the US you have many choices, and if you make the right ones for your life, you will succeed and build and good life.

Best of luck,

Maria

I agree with the people who said that work and money is most of today's american dream... Are you gonna live the american dream or not ? It all depends on what you are looking for in your life, but for me, working 80 hours a week, being tied to your blackberry all the time, never having real holidays, earning a lot of money but not having time to use it other than to buy a lot of material stuff and impress your neighbors, this is not how I see life. There are definitely some great things here (as in any place in the world for that matter), but you have to be in adequation with this way of life to really enjoy the US i guess...

As an American who lived in China for a few years, I feel I can appreciate what the US offers and be able to appreciate the "foreign view" as well.  I was over there when everyone here started eating "freedom fries", being fat was simply "accepting your natural body" and Americans were Republican, non-Republicans were pinko towel-headed traitors.  It all came to a climax when I heard Bill ORelly say "we oughtta hire clean arabs to find the dirty ones, 'cause a white man can't find a dirty arab, only a clean arab can find a dirty arab!". 
I got a glimpse of life in the pre-1960s Deep South, I imagined Bill OReilly as some southern Sherriff with a posse of good ole boys and a pack of hounddogs chasing middle eastern men through the swamps.

But the hidden lies of the Neo-clowns and the failures of Darth Cheney's (because he is the REAL president) foreign policy have done what was needed to American politics...polarized it.  Americans didn't care about "politics" when W got elected, now they do, which is good, and the US is less PC, which is also good.  I've read on the BBC's site that some Europeans like living in the US because they feel they can speak their mind more freely. 

As for "hard work", well I'm a social liberal but looking back to my grandparent's and my great grandparent's generations, they worked their butts off only with the reward of food on the table, hot&cold running water and a roof over their heads.  Now they bask in the comfort of their earlier efforts.  The babyboomer generation started out fighting for social equality, corporate responsibility and environmental awareness (all good) but now they are the generation of endless self-satisfaction, ignorance, pride and consumption (all bad).  Just look at the current crop of CEOs, all junk.

But this country was built by the endless hard labor of European and now Latino and Asian immigrants.  Here, they can taste the rewards of hard work in school, at a construction site or in an office.  There are social obstacles to overcome, but the US has been successfully absorbing people from countries and religions who hated each other in the "old world" for 200 years.

Just ask some white americans about their family history, most of the time that story will start out with poverty and illiteracy and the desire to escape "old world" beliefs and values. 

Living in a developing country, I found a new appreciation for the work ethic that immigrants bring to this country and a new appreciation for what they can contribute (with the exception of "tradtional beliefs" that often include various forms of oppression and obedience).

So European migrants, do yourselves a favor and don't look at the 25 hour work weeks, 3 month gov't paid vacations and other such goodies and compare that to the US, look back at why your ancestors came here and how they handled themselves when they got here and you'll do much better. 

And with the retirement of the "me" generation, there are more and more opportunities for everyone.  Read some US business newspapers and magazines, there aren't enough Americans to replace the baby boomers, much less fill newly created jobs.

I've been reading the responses to The American Dream and just had to respond! I am a British woman in her 50s who has lived in the U.S. for 30 years. The last five have been awful and make me wish I never came here. I never really cared for it but stayed because my family moved here. As I get older, it seems I feel the difference in values (mine and those generally known in the U.S.) more different than ever. Money rules all here. There is a saying I heard here and it is very, very true! It is "Americans live to work and Europeans work to live'.  That puts it in a nutshell!

The government, in my opinion, cares less about its people - only what they can contribute to the GNP. If you have thoughts rumbling around in your head that you perhaps don't belong here, listen to them before it is too late.

If I were younger I would have been gone yesterday.

As another American living overseas for several years, I would like to jump in the fray... It is true that most things are relative to what you compare them to. If you compare to life in China, perhaps the opportunities for an individual to express themselves and leap over economic hierarchical barriers are ones you can find in the US. If you compare to life in Europe, where the basic rights are also widely available with considerably less competition than, say,  China you will find yourself squabbling over some American-Euro opportunities over others.

As for being tied to your blackberry -- that's a choice. As for adopting a life in a commune in Northern California -- that's a choice. There is a wide spectrum of life philosophies in the US.. you will see them all from the wandering beatnik in San Fran to the Wall Street elite they all have a different philosophy and they are living them out. You have more opportunities to choose your lifestyle which is what I think really is the so-called 'American Dream.' However, opportunities, choices, freedom of expression come at a price we are constantly paying and constantly have to fight for.

In Korea i saw some graffiti that said 'Freedom is not free.' There are dreams and freedoms to be had in the US, perhaps more than most other countries, but they are and were never given to us. Just ask the blacks, hispanics, asians, muslims, women of today all the way back to the women, christians, whites and founding founders of yesterday. We have a constitiution that we still haven't fully lived up to, but it is there nonetheless and the fight goes on.

It's not perfect, but when people have the freedom to choose their lifestyle you're not always going to agree with the philosophy or lifestyle they choose.

AND if you find yourself complaining more than being positive, go back to your own country whatever country you're from. You'll be happier in the long runand you won't poop on other people's parades. That goes for EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE.

I'm with Winniethpooh on this.

I'm married to an American and moved here for employment reasons almost 13 years ago after visiting many times during our married life.  I too am in my fifties and would go home in a flash if it were an option, but we don't all have that choice.

For me, the hardest part is missing my grown and married kids and their children who opted to remain in the UK, but I was prepared to like the US, or at least to give it my best shot.  After all, I settled well in Germany.

The American Dream is an illusion, in my opinion.  We are moderately comfortable but drive down the road a few miles and there is poverty that would rival a Third World nation, while many people we know just about scrape by.  We know people working two jobs without any healthcare benefits.  They are in a hopeless spiral from which there is no escape, not because they are lazy (how can working 16 hours a day be considered lazy?) but because of this system that favours the haves in a way that no other developed nation does.

Added to that is a level of prejudice I have encountered nowhere else I've travelled.  To hear Arabs and Indians referred to as "Ragheads" and "Sand Niggers" just galls me.

And finally, there is this American inability to be disagreed with.  We opposed the war in Iraq.  My husband had served in the US armed forces for almost a quarter of a century so had well earned his opinion, but because of it, he was cold-shouldered at work while I was refused service in a local restaurant.  I received abusive phone calls and people threw things at our house, but by far the harder part was borne by my husband when people who never donned more than a Boy Scouts uniform called him a pinko-commie (expletive) or a Taliban supporter simply because he wouldn't follow George Bush's trek down the road to certain disaster.

American dream?  More like a nightmare, but we can't afford to return to the UK.  Still, God willing, retirement will see us either in Germany or Canada.

My god, Tricia, where do you live??  I'm really sorry you've had such an awful experience in the US.  I am a US citizen and find your treatment very embarrassing!  I've never even heard of the term "sand nigger".  Perhaps you can relocate within the US to a place like Boston where sentiments are a little different.  Then again, if you are going to relocate you may as well switch countries if that's what you prefer.

I do agree that one of the worst things about the US right now is the feeling that everyone is of an extreme, unchangeable opinion and will not consider any other side, or have an intelligent argument or discussion about their views.  I think it is more of an overall feeling than a reality.  Many Americans find it very frustrating that seemingly everyone around them is a closed-minded extremist - which is a good sign that there are still some thinking people out there.  The extremists can be difficult to deal with though.  My own in-laws are among them.  When I try to argue any point against them, my father-in-law just laughs through it, and my mother-in-law clams up and hides in the bathroom.  That kind of behavior is somewhat common in the midwestern US, where disagreement is anathema to many...leading to a dearth of actual discussion.
Well, I'm not feeling terribly coherent this morning if you can't tell, so perhaps I will stop there for now.

i have lived in the U.S. my entire life, so i don't know if this thread applies to me, but to be perfectly honest.. i think that "The American Dream" is called a "dream" for a reason...
the reality is that to "achieve" this state of mind, you must first max out a couple credit cards, and buy a house that you end up constantly sinking money into making "upgrades" to it so that it may help offset the decline of property value... then when you can finally retire, the company you gave your heart and soul to for the past 35-odd years can go bankrupt, take away your health insurance and pension, and move to mexico or some such place, leaving entire cities impoverished.

that is "The American Reality"... but hey, others may have a completely different interpretation! that's just me! (not to sound glum)

Good Luck!

The American Dream certainly exists, but only a few reach it. You must have intense aspirations, shameless self-praise and self-admiration , a hunger for attention and to describe yourself and your attributes and abilities, which can take some time for a European to acclimate to as we are used to tone things down rather than exhault ourselves. The country feels exciting and confusing and intimitating at the same time if you are new to it. Europeans enjoy it and have easier in it if they have many European friends to keep contact with while you acclimate. What can be a problem and source of disappointment is work; you probably get a lower paid job than you had expected. Make sure your papers are in order BEFORE you move because once you're there, it gets tough to correct it and you will only be stuck in small wage jobs.
I knew a friend who suffered greatly from his work in the US and he was often depressed; he did not know how to handle customer complaints and the demand of service that is so prominent in American culture. He took it too personal, while most things american is quite superficial.

Americans are forever positive and optimistic, the crown of their persona that people admire with them so much. But they are also extremely superficial. Superlatives are often only words without depth of feeling, and for a European we may stress too much weight on words and it can be confusing to adapt the first year or two. In general Europeans love their stay in the US, but I came across many who finally return home after years in the country too, when the first years of 'honeymooning' the nation was over.

To be successful, you must learn a certain etiquette; always dress professional for work, don't feel shy to use hairspray to keep your hair perfect even if you are a man (I laughed my ass off the first time I saw hairspray and makeup for men, but its real and normal there). Be polite and conscious of politeness and eager to serve, spread the superlatives "great! oh, how awesome! how wonderful to meet you! have a great day!" generously to everything you do and say it without fail and always look at the person and smile: S-M-I-L-E, European, no grumpy frowns here! All smiles is a must. Avoid to express negatives because they really don't know how to handle it in neutral, but it throws them off . Try to avoid 'heavy' discussions as this too they cannot handle, and they often lack any insight into other cultures and can appear 'tunnel visioned' . And avoid any comments that don't support their politics or culture unless you are very, very integrated and know them to a key and how to express this. It's really more important than many Europeans think to exaggerate the positives even if you don't feel it is always accurate, - if you want a chance to integrate. Tell people they are fascinating, clever, funny, good-looking even if the person may not be.

And the most important key word in this nation is: work, work, work. Money and material posessions says everything of who you are - unless you move to a small, modest little town. The aspiration of earning money is hard-core in the US psyche and of extreme importance. They will sacrifice everything for wealth, career and success. I mean everything . This is what makes it a country of great opportunities around every corner, but also a nation a bit stunted of emotional depth.

America has the best service in the world, wherever you are. If service is shitty at any point in the US, imagine how dreadful it is elsewhere!  Once you're spoiled with their service you will get annoyed back home.

All in all, they are friendly, open, chatty, polite and very helpful. In fact, they don't shy away from helping a complete stranger which add to their charm and openness to anything that is new. Friendship is a bit superficial in the US and come and go easily, and somehow takes immense time to sink to the degree of attachment we Europeans are prone to have for each other. But the happy and positive nature of the americans make the country pleasant overall, even if selling your soul for the dollar don't have the same value for you. :top:

We can't deny that America is one of the richest country in the world. If you are willing to work hard, you will definitely find good fortune in America. I have heard of some discrimination issues for foreigners but never had expereince it actually so take courage and fulfill that dream.

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lady therese wrote:

We can't deny that America is one of the richest country in the world

Having "stuff" is not the same thing as wealth.  We are 18 trillion dollars in debt and will be 24 trillion in debt by the time we have the opportunity to change our administration.  The way you should look at a country's wealth is not so much the number of big screen televisions that people have charged on credit cards but Debt/GDP ratio.  Another is the central bank's balance sheet.  That standard of measure tells an entirely different story - one in which America isn't a wealthy country, but one that is living beyond its means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … ublic_debt

(now, keep in mind as in anything else numbers can be skewed.  A country that is so bankrupt that it has no debt and a GDP of 5 cents is not wealthy.  But in terms of 1st and 2nd world industrialized nations such measure has value).