Attack in Cuenca

1:30 PM, police not concerned?  Why should they be?  Did you expect them to be concerned?  "Just Like Tom Thumb Blues" sums up third world police the best:

"And if you're lookin to get silly you better go back to from where you came.
Cause the cops don't need you and man they expect the same"

Sorry to say that situation won't be changing any time soon.  The laws in Ecuador do not favor self defense, so being armed may be tricky, but mace sounds like the best alternative.  Be interested to hear from others in the city and what measures, if any, they are taking.  Can't see needing to carry a cell phone.

Aside from the obvious displaying of the cell phone, why was she or you carrying a purse at all? I also notice no mention of the couples age which plays a part in any criminal thought process. Be nice to know the ages of these folks?
Not condoning this but a mark is a mark to a criminal and coupling obvious displays of the purse and the phone with I think an older couple you've got the ingredients most street criminals look for in their marks. This is applicable to anyone's country
Has anyone discussed the possibility of collaborating with other concerned ex pats and Ecuadorian citizens who are equally concerned? If so, I believe you'll find that in numbers there is strength when attempting to discuss these concerns and issues with the police or Cuenca's politicians. I also believe that if a group is put together of both ex pats, merchants and local folks you'll find that when defense is discussed that the topic of allowable defense becomes clearer, better defined and understood by those of us seeking to defend against any attack. 
Anyone willing to try bringing this combination of folks together?
I'll be home in Cuenca in late January and would be willing to assist others with helping to bring a group together. This group effort would aid in keeping communications open and reported as events unfold.

Realistically, most women carry some sort of bag in Cuenca. It should be carried across the body. They can't just rip it off if carried that way. I do the same with my computer bag. Also, I think the age remark is a bit obvious. Most of us are senior citizens. Are you suggesting Srs' don't go out in broad daylight?
I carry  a cell phone. I use it to communicate. I do not walk down the street talking. When I am using my cell, I use the same precautions I do as at an ATM.
I like and support the idea of a combined community effort. Perhaps like in my home city of Minneapolis you could set up a police liaison for each neighborhood, or precinct, and work with the police. We also had block commanders who communicated what crimes have been commited, where, and when. I don't know if the local police would be open to that in Cuenca, but perhaps the mayor would be able to establish that type of system. Just some additional thoughts.
Stay Well,
Neil

I definitely agree that involving the merchants would be important to success. If a neighborhood is having a crime problem, the merchants know that it will hurt business, so they will be motivated -- and they will probably also be more likely to have influence with the police and politicians.

This is off topic, but i'll ask it anyway. Has anyone here been to Burma? Myanmar. Tonight i watched a TV program on Myanmar, the food looks exquisite. It seems unusually safe in the extreme. That aspect, together with the food adventure is very appealing.

James-Esq wrote:

This is off topic, but i'll ask it anyway. Has anyone here been to Burma? Myanmar. Tonight i watched a TV program on Myanmar, the food looks exquisite. It seems unusually safe in the extreme. That aspect, together with the food adventure is very appealing.

Don't know much about it other than was the richest country in S.E. Asia in 1962, and now it's the poorest, or right there with the poorest. Know Jim Rogers thinks it's got great investment potential, and is undergoing drastic changes for the better.

A tactic used in the Philippines is called the drop wallet.  People hide their real stuff in socks, boots or whatever and carry an expendable wallet with a few pesos and some fake credit cards in the usual spot, and give it up without resistance when the situation calls for it.  In Ecuador women could carry a useless bag with nothing in it, and not go to the ground trying to keep it. Just an idea worth considering.

Mugs,
Before I got here, I considered carrying a dummy wallet, and junk throw away cell phone. Didn't do it.
What most people fail to compare is:
Is there a city in the US of half a million people that doesn't read of multiple physical attacks on a daily basis, to include murder?
I  realize this doesn't negate the horror of the folks  this actually happened to, but really, we have to put it into perspective. You hear of one or two incidents, in a city of this size, and people freak. In the US, it's business as usual.
You hear of very few gun crimes < murders> in Cuenca. In the US?
Common!
Just Sayin'
Regards,
Neil

ZenSPIKE wrote:

Mugs,
Before I got here, I considered carrying a dummy wallet, and junk throw away cell phone. Didn't do it.
What most people fail to compare is:
Is there a city in the US of half a million people that doesn't read of multiple physical attacks on a daily basis, to include murder?
I  realize this doesn't negate the horror of the folks  this actually happened to, but really, we have to put it into perspective. You hear of one or two incidents, in a city of this size, and people freak. In the US, it's business as usual.
You hear of very few gun crimes < murders> in Cuenca. In the US?
Common!
Just Sayin'
Regards,
Neil

Good point.
Adding: if you live in a society (now) where you are free of the constant pressure of petty, and not-so-petty crime, then you need to be aware of the difference when moving to Latin America. Its a different culture and petty crime is woven into the fabric. Gringos adapt, some more easily than others.

Once upon a time I did some business with a Spanish banker who was living in both Panama and Costa Rica at the time. A very seasoned guy previously in South America where he had been  working for a Swiss bank for 5 years, posted in two or three countries. One evening over dinner for two hrs I listened to tale after tale of violent bank robberies, some of the most entertaining stories i have ever heard, yet shockingly violent and bloody. The newspapers loved the opportunity for sensationalism and regularly put it in full colour on the front page. So my point is, there is a certain romance associated with crime in S.A. - 'banditos', a cultural badge of honour to some.

ZenSPIKE wrote:

Mugs,
Before I got here, I considered carrying a dummy wallet, and junk throw away cell phone. Didn't do it.
What most people fail to compare is:
Is there a city in the US of half a million people that doesn't read of multiple physical attacks on a daily basis, to include murder?
I  realize this doesn't negate the horror of the folks  this actually happened to, but really, we have to put it into perspective. You hear of one or two incidents, in a city of this size, and people freak. In the US, it's business as usual.
You hear of very few gun crimes < murders> in Cuenca. In the US?
Common!
Just Sayin'
Regards,
Neil

I agree with you, Neil, that most of the USA is probably more dangerous than Cuenca, especially when it comes to murders and other violent crimes.  The idea is that the drop wallet may give some people peace of mind, keeping in mind that other behaviors are required to not be an inviting target.  For people in the Philippines the drop wallet comes under the heading of "I did what I could do, so let the chips fall where they may."  It would be interesting to see the actual crime statistics in a city with a 1% expat population what percentage of crimes are committed against expats.  Such information is probably not available.

mugtech wrote:

For people in the Philippines the drop wallet comes under the heading of "I did what I could do, so let the chips fall where they may."  It would be interesting to see the actual crime statistics in a city with a 1% expat population what percentage of crimes are committed against expats.  Such information is probably not available.

That's an ongoing topic of debate among expats here in Cebu, Mug. Our perception is that we are disproportionately targeted for crime, and it makes sense that we would be -- we are easy to spot (being much taller and whiter than most people here) and are assumed to be rich. We also are assumed to be easy targets, since so many of us are of retirement age.

But hard numbers are another matter.

Many of the cases of which one hears are things where it's tough to give the victim as much sympathy as he may want. An example is a guy who got beat up a few nights ago in a bar near Colon Street. The reaction on a forum where I hang out could be summarized as: "Gee whiz, a guy goes into a bar in a neighborhood full of drug dealers, hookers, pimps, pickpockets, and assorted other lowlifes, and he gets his butt kicked. Who coulda guessed that might happen?

Bob

What type of self defense products do they have available in Ecuador? This particular situation sounds like a surprise attack, as suppose most attacks are. Not sure if something like mace would of really helped in this instance, but can you buy mace products, stun gun/taser guns, high decibel whistles, etc. in Ecuador?

Also does anyone know what exactly the rules are in Ecuador when it comes to self defense? What is deemed acceptable, and what is considered excessive if anything?

j600rr wrote:

Also does anyone know what exactly the rules are in Ecuador when it comes to self defense? What is deemed acceptable, and what is considered excessive if anything?

Vinny and others wrote on here within the last year that even if you have a permit to carry a gun and someone breaks into your home, shooting them will probably result in lawyers fees and long stretches in jail just to get a hearing.  The advise was, if you gonna kill someone for home invasion, best to invest in a silencer, ditch the body and clean up the mess and go into Sgt Schultz mode.  (I know nothing)

mugtech wrote:

j600rr wrote:

Also does anyone know what exactly the rules are in Ecuador when it comes to self defense? What is deemed acceptable, and what is considered excessive if anything?

Vinny and others wrote on here within the last year that even if you have a permit to carry a gun and someone breaks into your home, shooting them will probably result in lawyers fees and long stretches in jail just to get a hearing.  The advise was, if you gonna kill someone for home invasion, best to invest in a silencer, ditch the body and clean up the mess and go into Sgt Schultz mode.  (I know nothing)

That would be worst case scenario of course, and truthfully if that ever happened would be headed to which ever border was closest, and from there back to the U.S. so fast you couldn't even imagine (after cleaning up the mess first of course.) Never been to jail in S.A. or gone through the legal system, and sure as hell never do plan on trying my luck with either.

Aside from that was really wondering if anyone knows what would happen for a more likely event, or scenario? For example what if I were having a nice leisurely stroll, carrying my nice walking stick/defensive stick made from steel, and someone pulls a knife on me. Now if I were to give him a nice swift smack right across the jaw with my stick is there a good chance next thing I know the police will be knocking on my door because am now being accused of attacking someone?

I agree with you on the idea that the drop wallet gives them a sense of security.
It would be interesting to see a comparative on crime statistics, but I highly doubt they would be forthcoming with that. A little to much info for the gringo! < grin >
Stay Well,
Neil

ZenSPIKE wrote:

Realistically, most women carry some sort of bag in Cuenca. It should be carried across the body. They can't just rip it off if carried that way. I do the same with my computer bag. Also, I think the age remark is a bit obvious. Most of us are senior citizens. Are you suggesting Srs' don't go out in broad daylight?
I carry  a cell phone. I use it to communicate. I do not walk down the street talking. When I am using my cell, I use the same precautions I do as at an ATM.
I like and support the idea of a combined community effort. Perhaps like in my home city of Minneapolis you could set up a police liaison for each neighborhood, or precinct, and work with the police. We also had block commanders who communicated what crimes have been commited, where, and when. I don't know if the local police would be open to that in Cuenca, but perhaps the mayor would be able to establish that type of system. Just some additional thoughts.
Stay Well,
Neil

Well said Neil,
With enough expats and local citizens raising a united voice maybe the municipal government will get serious a out the issue and look for solutions .

mugtech wrote:

A tactic used in the Philippines is called the drop wallet.  People hide their real stuff in socks, boots or whatever and carry an expendable wallet with a few pesos and some fake credit cards in the usual spot, and give it up without resistance when the situation calls for it.  In Ecuador women could carry a useless bag with nothing in it, and not go to the ground trying to keep it. Just an idea worth considering.

Perhaps a good idea to carry an expendable wallet but at the same time I applaud the woman for putting up a resistance to hold on to what's hers. The last thing petty thieves expect is for their victims to put up a fight. If there is enough stiff resistance then it may deter some would be thieves.

I've lived and taught university both in the US and the Middle East. I'll tell you the US was more dangerous.
If I was on a beach in the Middle East and got hassled, all I had to do was raise my voice and everyone would come to my aid.

I have to admit I'm worried about moving to Ecuador. Perhaps it's because I'm Canadian and we don't have much to fear up here... too cold to venture out...ha!

I'm learning a lot... thanks to everyone writing.

Judee wrote:

I've lived and taught university both in the US and the Middle East. I'll tell you the US was more dangerous.
If I was on a beach in the Middle East and got hassled, all I had to do was raise my voice and everyone would come to my aid.

I have to admit I'm worried about moving to Ecuador. Perhaps it's because I'm Canadian and we don't have much to fear up here... too cold to venture out...ha!

I'm learning a lot... thanks to everyone writing.

Don't think there is much to fear. Simple common sense goes a long way. Don't really see any forums, or articles where all you read about is violent crime in Ecuador, which is probably because it's not really a problem. Bad things happen sometimes. From a percentage basis you are probably less likely to have anything bad happen to you in Ecuador than in many places in the world.

If anything I think these blogs and different forums are healthy in that they bring up the inevitable fact that crime is a reality, and does exist. For instance the U.S. warns Ecuador is rated “critical” for both crime and residential security by the State Department. There quote not mine. Now if you look further they mention 4 U.S. citizens have been murdered since 2009. So you know I mean come on 4 U.S. citizens in 4 years and that's critical? Kind of have to keep things in perspective.

j600rr wrote:

Judee wrote:

I've lived and taught university both in the US and the Middle East. I'll tell you the US was more dangerous.
If I was on a beach in the Middle East and got hassled, all I had to do was raise my voice and everyone would come to my aid.

I have to admit I'm worried about moving to Ecuador. Perhaps it's because I'm Canadian and we don't have much to fear up here... too cold to venture out...ha!

I'm learning a lot... thanks to everyone writing.

Don't think there is much to fear. Simple common sense goes a long way. Don't really see any forums, or articles where all you read about is violent crime in Ecuador, which is probably because it's not really a problem. Bad things happen sometimes. From a percentage basis you are probably less likely to have anything bad happen to you in Ecuador than in many places in the world.

If anything I think these blogs and different forums are healthy in that they bring up the inevitable fact that crime is a reality, and does exist. For instance the U.S. warns Ecuador is rated “critical” for both crime and residential security by the State Department. There quote not mine. Now if you look further they mention 4 U.S. citizens have been murdered since 2009. So you know I mean come on 4 U.S. citizens in 4 years and that's critical? Kind of have to keep things in perspective.

Yep and 4 murdered in one day in Lybia and still no satisfaction.

I've worked as a police officer and a prison guard in the U.S. I thought I read somewhere on this site that there are only about 4000 Americans living in Ecuador. If there has been one murdered each of the last four years, here's my perspective;

We lived in Boise, Idaho. One to two murders a year for a population of 120,000 Americans (back in 1996).

We live in Flagstaff now. One or two murders a year for a town of around 60,000 Americans.

One murdered American a year out of 4000 Americans is not good. Sure, it's not Baghdad, but it's not good.

When I traveled to Rio, back in the early 80's, Americans were targeted by local thieves. The thieves know where you Americans are gathering. Where you like to hang out or walk. You will want to take precautions. Consider non-lethal forms of defense. Check with local police to see what is legal. Alarm your properties. See if local police offer ride-a-long programs, so you can gather more information about places to avoid and profiles of who the perps are. When you see folks matching that profile, go on high alert. Duck into a store or move quickly to a safer place. Let the thugs know that you see them and take some sort of defensive posture. If you can safely do it, take their picture. But it is best if you keep smart phones out of site. Avoid crowds or crowded sidewalks. Have a plan you have worked out in case you are attacked or about to be attacked. Rehearse what you plan to do. Have a signal or code words that mean something like, run now, or fight now, or let's give them our valuables because this seems too dangerous. If you carry a dummy wallet or purse, drop it and run. Do not run away from people, but run towards or into a business. Avoid running near traffic, because you could get pushed into it. You won't outrun a 22 year-old kid. You only want to put a little distance between you and him as he picks up your wallet. He doesn't want to get caught, so he wants to complete his crime in a matter of seconds.

A woman I work with showed me her new tazer. It is small and light to carry. It will stop a lot of criminals, but you have to get next to them and touch them with the device. Very much a last resort type of thing.

When my wife and I rode mountain bikes near Banff, in British Columbia, we knew there could be large bears out on the trails. We read about some deadly encounters. We had a German friend, Wolfgang, with us. One of us had a large can of bear mace. One had a marine type air horn. I kept a large bowie knife in my pack. We all road with bells on our packs. The plan was to dismount the bikes and stand shoulder to shoulder with our bikes in front of us. We would blast the air horn. If the bear charged, he would be sprayed with mace. If everything went wrong, and we were attacked, the two not getting mauled would continue spraying mace. If my wife was being mauled, I'd try to jam my large bowie knife into the bears eye socket. And lastly, if Wolfgang tried to run away, my wife and I are much faster runners and we would knock him down as we raced past him. Auf Wiedersehen, Wolfgang.

And yes, we did see a black bear on the trail, at a distance of 150 feet. We turned around and left the area quickly. Again, have a plan to escape or to stand your ground.

Great post TWS.

Once upon a time i used to shoot animals, bear included. If you've ever skinned a bear, you'd realize better their muscle power. We are like a wet noodle standing next to them. And their speed? OMG, they can swat a salmon out of the water.. having tried to spear salmon, i know how impossibly difficult that feat is. Salmon propel like a rocket. Bear make swatting salmon look effortless. Good on the bells. Bear sometimes attack when they are surprised, as they have very poor vision, they are surprised easily unless you make noise. Their hearing is excellent. You're a very brave man if you think a knife will stop a bear.

That said, I think your advise is great. But such cooperation from Latin American police is probably a pipe-dream. In Latin America, in the big city, you're not likely to get shot in broad daylight,unless its something like a car-jacking or a kidnapping. Its a very wise policy to have someone, a friend that can get their hands on $2,000 to $5,000 in cash at the request of a phone call. It might save your life if you are targeted. I have a friend that lived through at least two attempted car-jacking scenarios in CR, but then he was a professional racing driver for Porche, and ya, that's what he was driving, both times. They never got him.

When living in CR, I had a full-time driver because i was a typical target. It cost me about $600/mo. He supplied the car, I paid for the gas and meals. He was extremely trustworthy, and i never once felt any danger. Obviously this is not a solution for average people on a budget, however, I suggest that its easy to find one or two regular gypo-taxi drivers that will respond to a call, day or night. Tip them generously and over time you will bond and be treated like family. Taxis in latin america (city) are a risk, you need to know what you are doing. Never-but-never flag one down. You are playing Russian roulette, and the odds are not good.

I think your advice is great. It may save a life.
Cheers!
James

I meant to mention that a Gizzly bear can out run a horse. And they will kill for pleasure. Oh, and never go in the bush with a female who is menstruating...that's another no-no.
James

the wayfaring stranger wrote:

I've worked as a police officer and a prison guard in the U.S. I thought I read somewhere on this site that there are only about 4000 Americans living in Ecuador. If there has been one murdered each of the last four years, here's my perspective;

It's a bit over 4000, but your point is very valid and very good. IF (and we should emphasize that) there is an American killed each year, then Cuenca is more dangerous than Chicago -- which is not a good thing.

Last year, an all-time record, there were 532 people killed in Chicago, which has over 2.7 million residents -- so the number killed was about one in more than 5,000. And this is one of the most violent cities in the US.

I don't want to sound like an alarmist, but IF the numbers are correct, then it is wise to be aware of the level of danger.

(NOTE: I lived near Chicago and worked in the city, and I survived. I simply stayed out of the places where people are likely to get killed).

Bob

I'll take the other side of the fence here. Ok, yes 1 out of 4,000 is high, but first of all am assuming that 4,000 number is probably only what is on the official record (people who have actually gotten residence). Now could be wrong about that. If am right, then would say for everyone who goes through the official process there are probably at least 5 who don't. This is not official statistics of course, but am sure there are plenty of people who only want to spend a few months a year enjoying Ecuador, and don't really want a permanent residence in the country. Now let's throw in some other numbers. As of 2011 there were over 1.2 million visitors. Don't know what percentage of them would be Americans. Think we could probably say conservatively 5% at least. So is quite feasible that over the course of a year there is at least 70,000 Americans. 1 out of 70,000 makes things look much better. Of course as we've discussed before, you can pretty much make statistics fit into any view point you have.

Anyone who has read any of my posts should know that am not a naive, oh yes everything is perfect type of guy. Have warned of many potential problems that can occur. Bad things happen in life. Of course something bad can happen in Ecuador, but I think that with some common sense, and being alert of surroundings, that any type of violent crime happening to you is not something people should be terrified about. Doesn't mean they should be ignorant of the possibility either.

Personally would worry much more about the gringo who wants to be my best friend screwing me over, than I would of being attacked by someone.

Hi j600rr. I would personally worry more about a car crash, being T-Boned at an intersection, run over on a side walk or crossing the street.

James-Esq wrote:

Hi j600rr. I would personally worry more about a car crash, being T-Boned at an intersection, run over on a side walk or crossing the street.

Lol, yeah those are definitely real possibilities.

James-Esq wrote:

I meant to mention that a Gizzly bear can out run a horse. And they will kill for pleasure. Oh, and never go in the bush with a female who is menstruating...that's another no-no.
James

I never go ANYWHERE with a female who is menstruating, especially into the bush.

j600rr wrote:

Aside from that was really wondering if anyone knows what would happen for a more likely event, or scenario? For example what if I were having a nice leisurely stroll, carrying my nice walking stick/defensive stick made from steel, and someone pulls a knife on me. Now if I were to give him a nice swift smack right across the jaw with my stick is there a good chance next thing I know the police will be knocking on my door because am now being accused of attacking someone?

Or perhaps you could start wearing brass knuckles, telling the curious they are the latest trend in outlaw fashion.  You could practice using them in your abode, having them double as a meat tenderizer.  I do wonder what the consequences would be using the "Grandpa's cane, it turns into a sword" (Bob Dylan) approach to self defense.

It's a stylish walking stick, not a cane Mugtech. Get it straight.
Lol:D

Anyone ever see The Hatfields and McCoys White Lightning on History Channel? Did you see the cane the granddaughter got her grandmother? Could use it as a stun gun also. Really quite brilliant. I mean really why couldn't you take a cane/walking stick that acts as a stun gun, and also somehow have it set up that can shoot mace as well. Would make a very good inconspicuous weapon.

j600rr wrote:

Anyone ever see The Hatfields and McCoys White Lightning on History Channel? Did you see the cane the granddaughter got her grandmother? Could use it as a stun gun also. Really quite brilliant. I mean really why couldn't you take a cane/walking stick that acts as a stun gun, and also somehow have it set up that can shoot mace as well. Would make a very good inconspicuous weapon.

Sounds like a doable plan.

the wayfaring stranger wrote:

I've worked as a police officer and a prison guard in the U.S. I thought I read somewhere on this site that there are only about 4000 Americans living in Ecuador. If there has been one murdered each of the last four years, here's my perspective;

We lived in Boise, Idaho. One to two murders a year for a population of 120,000 Americans (back in 1996).

We live in Flagstaff now. One or two murders a year for a town of around 60,000 Americans.

One murdered American a year out of 4000 Americans is not good. Sure, it's not Baghdad, but it's not good...

I thought it was over 5000 expats living in Cuenca alone. I think your figure is way off the mark.

I come from a historically violent city, Tacoma, WA. I find Ecuador to be much safer. Of course, I also found living on a base in Afghanistan safer, so take that for what it's worth. I often carry a decoy bag in case a thief just wants to make a quick snatch and grab, but I've never needed it. I'm almost looking forward to the day when a thief runs off with a $10 bag containing an old shirt and a roll of toilet paper.

j600rr wrote:

I'll take the other side of the fence here. Ok, yes 1 out of 4,000 is high, but first of all am assuming that 4,000 number is probably only what is on the official record (people who have actually gotten residence). Now could be wrong about that. If am right, then would say for everyone who goes through the official process there are probably at least 5 who don't. This is not official statistics of course, but am sure there are plenty of people who only want to spend a few months a year enjoying Ecuador, and don't really want a permanent residence in the country. Now let's throw in some other numbers. As of 2011 there were over 1.2 million visitors. Don't know what percentage of them would be Americans. Think we could probably say conservatively 5% at least. So is quite feasible that over the course of a year there is at least 70,000 Americans. 1 out of 70,000 makes things look much better. Of course as we've discussed before, you can pretty much make statistics fit into any view point you have.

I agree with George Bernard Shaw (There's liars, there's damn liars, and there's statistics) on this one.  It should be noted that if there are 70,000 USA tourists in Ecuador every year, and each one stays an average of 3 months, then they are really equivalent to 17,500 full time residents.  I think it would be more useful to know where the four murders took place, and since USA folks live in more than 4 places, find out where there were no murders the last 4 years.  It does seem that the traffic is more dangerous than the murder possibilities.

So the topic has gone from one incident of *a* stolen cell phone--to expat murders per capita?

Way to keep it real folks. 

mugtech wrote:

I agree with George Bernard Shaw (There's liars, there's damn liars, and there's statistics) on this one.  It should be noted that if there are 70,000 USA tourists in Ecuador every year, and each one stays an average of 3 months, then they are really equivalent to 17,500 full time residents.  I think it would be more useful to know where the four murders took place, and since USA folks live in more than 4 places, find out where there were no murders the last 4 years.  It does seem that the traffic is more dangerous than the murder possibilities.

Now that's interesting, because i have always attributed that quote to Mark Twain.

Your points put the issue in better perspective. I'd like to know how these people were murdered, and i'd rather not hear it was by home invasion. Yep, I think traffic is the big one.

Overall, Ecuador seems a lot safer than many Latino countries, and in particular Costa Rica from what I am reading.

James-Esq wrote:

mugtech wrote:

I agree with George Bernard Shaw (There's liars, there's damn liars, and there's statistics) on this one.  It should be noted that if there are 70,000 USA tourists in Ecuador every year, and each one stays an average of 3 months, then they are really equivalent to 17,500 full time residents.  I think it would be more useful to know where the four murders took place, and since USA folks live in more than 4 places, find out where there were no murders the last 4 years.  It does seem that the traffic is more dangerous than the murder possibilities.

Now that's interesting, because i have always attributed that quote to Mark Twain.

Your points put the issue in better perspective. I'd like to know how these people were murdered, and i'd rather not hear it was by home invasion. Yep, I think traffic is the big one.

Overall, Ecuador seems a lot safer than many Latino countries, and in particular Costa Rica from what I am reading.

Actually, it originated from Benjamin Disraeli, but was popularized by Mr. Twain. And I ain't lying! < much >

For some reason I thought this story fits into this conversation.

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/2682 … each-other

Mark Twain said... "Lies, damn lies and statistics"... nothing about liars... however he may have stole it.

The quote I like best attributed to Twain about statistics is... "The problem with statistics is that most people use them the way a drunk uses a lamp post... more for support than illumination"... ha.

Cheers,

Judy